Posted on Nov 27, 2022
Why does Army BCT not include Crew Served Weapons in its POI?
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I just left a visit with my son who is in AIT. He graduated from BCT last month at Fort Jackson. He is in what we used to call a Combat Support MOS. In conversation it came up that they were shown an M249 and an M240B but did not train on either of those, nor the M203! You have got to be kidding! Not to mention that they did not even see an M-2 .50 Caliber.
Folks, these are not Infantry weapon systems, they are Army Weapon systems.
It was thinking like this that led the Army in the early 2000s to cancel machinegun training for IET soldiers. That had devastating results in combat and as a result I and a couple other NCOs had to rewrite the TSP and POI for heavy machine guns in IET. Now TRADOC has again scrapped machineguns from BCT! What did they need the time for?
How many times will young troops not be taught vital Soldier skills before the powers that be learn?
Folks, these are not Infantry weapon systems, they are Army Weapon systems.
It was thinking like this that led the Army in the early 2000s to cancel machinegun training for IET soldiers. That had devastating results in combat and as a result I and a couple other NCOs had to rewrite the TSP and POI for heavy machine guns in IET. Now TRADOC has again scrapped machineguns from BCT! What did they need the time for?
How many times will young troops not be taught vital Soldier skills before the powers that be learn?
Basic Combat Training (BCT)
Fort Jackson
Posted 2 y ago
Responses: 20
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The same reason the Marine Corps doesn’t train those weapon systems at Boot Camp. Time and funding. They are introduced in follow on training down the road as needed and ultimately will be on the receiving unit to train them to meet mission requirements.
Not everyone will be hands on with every weapon system when they hit their duty stations and ammunition is a resource.
Not everyone will be hands on with every weapon system when they hit their duty stations and ammunition is a resource.
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MSG Thomas Currie
The difference is that NCOs in some units acknowledge their responsibility to train their soldiers and NCOs in some other units are better at complaining that someone else should have done the training.
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SGM (Join to see)
MSG Thomas Currie - It has nothing to do with the crew served weapons being available to their units? Or, the ammunition for those weapons was not forecast years prior?
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MSG Thomas Currie
No, SGM (Join to see) the failure of some units to train their personnel on the unit weapons is NOT due to the weapons being unavailable. It might be partly due to the incompetence of the headquarters S3 shop that failed to forecast ammo for necessary training and the incompetence of the higher headquarters G3 failing to question the omission -- but that takes us right back to what I said: some units acknowledge their responsibility to train their soldiers and other units are better at complaining about why they can't do their jobs.
I will acknowledge that reserve components units not on active duty really do have legitimate problems finding time to properly train their METL due to a variety of "required" nonsense. In fact, at the height of the GWOT farce, even some active component units faced the problem of needed training falling below the line due to the Army's unique notion that every Brigade was interchangeable with every other Brigade meaning that everyone suddenly became an infantry brigade regardless of organization or manpower.
Having TRADOC punch everyone's ticket for every possible crew served weapon is not really a solution -- 90% of soldiers will have forgotten that half-day of training by the time they arrive at their first unit.
I will acknowledge that reserve components units not on active duty really do have legitimate problems finding time to properly train their METL due to a variety of "required" nonsense. In fact, at the height of the GWOT farce, even some active component units faced the problem of needed training falling below the line due to the Army's unique notion that every Brigade was interchangeable with every other Brigade meaning that everyone suddenly became an infantry brigade regardless of organization or manpower.
Having TRADOC punch everyone's ticket for every possible crew served weapon is not really a solution -- 90% of soldiers will have forgotten that half-day of training by the time they arrive at their first unit.
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SSgt Christophe Murphy
MSG Thomas Currie I find it unlikely they wouldn’t have the proper equipment per TO&E. That’s some high vis stuff I don’t see happening.
But it’s fully possible that training doesn’t happen due to a failure in planning/logistics.
It’s
But it’s fully possible that training doesn’t happen due to a failure in planning/logistics.
It’s
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Time and funding, more than likely. Only so much time in the day of a BCT for training. Plus, the amount of funds those rounds cost. When I went thru BCT (1993), we had a brief moment to fire 50 rounds from the M-60, a 9mm tracer round from the AT-4, and a chalk/paint round from the M203. I never saw nor fired an M2 .50 in BCT. In fact, from 1993 to 1997 I never once touched a .50. For that matter, it wasn't until '97 or '98 that I fired a M9
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SSG Roger Ayscue
SGM Erik Marquez - I agree it was a gaining unit leadership failure. Totally, 100%. It was a Unit failure in Pre-deployment train up, those NCOs and officers from Team Leader to Battalion Commander have a slice of that Failure pie to eat.
All I was saying is that it might be a good thing if the BCT at least did a familiarization, and coming from an Army in the past that emphasized Gunnery, marksmanship and basic weapon proficency, I am confused how the Army got away from it.
All I was saying is that it might be a good thing if the BCT at least did a familiarization, and coming from an Army in the past that emphasized Gunnery, marksmanship and basic weapon proficency, I am confused how the Army got away from it.
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SGM Erik Marquez
SSG Roger Ayscue - "Gunnery, marksmanship and basic weapon proficency" BCT, AIT or OUST has Never trained on "gunnery"
"Markminship" is trained at all three
"Basic weapon proficiency" is just that proficiency with your basic weapon. Meaning proficiency with your individual weapon. Crew Served weapons have never been a doctrinal focus of training at BCT, AIT or OUST. Machine gunners or Squad assault weapon gunners are assigned at the unit level. And while a pistol may be an assigned weapon at the unit level, only a few MOS carry it routinely as a personal weapon...say 31B MP, or 31 K dog handler. and THEY do get training specific to the weapon in AIT
"Markminship" is trained at all three
"Basic weapon proficiency" is just that proficiency with your basic weapon. Meaning proficiency with your individual weapon. Crew Served weapons have never been a doctrinal focus of training at BCT, AIT or OUST. Machine gunners or Squad assault weapon gunners are assigned at the unit level. And while a pistol may be an assigned weapon at the unit level, only a few MOS carry it routinely as a personal weapon...say 31B MP, or 31 K dog handler. and THEY do get training specific to the weapon in AIT
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1LT William Clardy
I'm going to share a heretical thought about pistols, SGM Erik Marquez: In a military (not law-enforcement) context, they are morale tools, not weapons.
Pistols require a disproportionate amount of training to be used effectively, training which almost no soldiers receive. Even with that training, they are vastly less effective than every other weapon in the arms room, and the abysmal hit probability is doubled down by the limited amount of ammo issued (does anybody get issued more than enough for 3 loaded magazines?).
We now return you to the argument already in progress...
Pistols require a disproportionate amount of training to be used effectively, training which almost no soldiers receive. Even with that training, they are vastly less effective than every other weapon in the arms room, and the abysmal hit probability is doubled down by the limited amount of ammo issued (does anybody get issued more than enough for 3 loaded magazines?).
We now return you to the argument already in progress...
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Guess I’m an antique. When I went through BCT & AIT at Ft Jackson as an 11B10, we trained on the M2 and M1919, as well as the M60. That was in 1966. From there, I went to Ft Benning for OCS and came out a 1542, was immediately assigned to Ft Bragg and the 3SFG. All of nine moths at Ft Bragg and off I went to Vietnam and the 1st Cavalry Division (Air Mobile).
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