Posted on Nov 27, 2022
SSG Roger Ayscue
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I just left a visit with my son who is in AIT. He graduated from BCT last month at Fort Jackson. He is in what we used to call a Combat Support MOS. In conversation it came up that they were shown an M249 and an M240B but did not train on either of those, nor the M203! You have got to be kidding! Not to mention that they did not even see an M-2 .50 Caliber.
Folks, these are not Infantry weapon systems, they are Army Weapon systems.
It was thinking like this that led the Army in the early 2000s to cancel machinegun training for IET soldiers. That had devastating results in combat and as a result I and a couple other NCOs had to rewrite the TSP and POI for heavy machine guns in IET. Now TRADOC has again scrapped machineguns from BCT! What did they need the time for?
How many times will young troops not be taught vital Soldier skills before the powers that be learn?
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SPC Mason Mullins
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Had to be a time and funding issue as others mentioned.
I graduated BCT at Jackson and we did the 240, 249, M2, and MK19.
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SSG Roger Ayscue
SSG Roger Ayscue
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My point exactly. I would just be curious to know what replaced it in the BCT POI
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MSgt James Parker
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I agree with everything the group has posted and the additional decision by each service component is to rely on the individual units to complete these basic military tasks. This is where the leadership of each small unit has the requirement to complete Fiscal/Annual Training Events. In the event a new join to a unit isn't certified it is on the unit to complete these events per member - this goes into the unit readiness cycle (the deployment decisions come from these statistics.) Those of us in the training arena do the best we can to get our units to a close to 100% as possible, this keeps the boss out of trouble. As a Marine every other year a unit has to complete a Marine Corps Combat Readiness Evaluation (MCCRE), every individual will be evaluated and graded. The unit commander will have the overall grade included on their annual evaluation. A similar process is used for each unit functional area (Administration, Sustainment, etc...). This is why we say training never stops, think of Olympians (their objective is to get the gold). We just want to get to the battlefield, complete the mission and get back home safely. "The more we sweat in training the less we bleed in combat."
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SPC Sam Sterner
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If your son wanted to fire more weapons have him reclass to 11B.
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SSG Roger Ayscue
SSG Roger Ayscue
>1 y
SFC Casey O'Mally - but, you and I both know that not everyone that wears stripes, not everyone that writes a training schedule and not everyone that knows the right thing to do does it. All my point was, and I fail to see why I am drawing so much hate for it is to ask why a fam fire for organic weapons systems that are for the most part organic army wide is a bad thing.
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SSG Roger Ayscue
SSG Roger Ayscue
>1 y
SFC Casey O'Mally - your statement "We need to let NCOs do their job." Where in anything that I have said do I take away from that. I expect them to do it and as an Army Dad, I DEMAND that they do. My point is simple. Basic Combat Training should include a familiarization with basic Army Weapon Systems. Back when I went to Basic Training there was a vehicle called the Gamma Goat. We had a day when they showed us all the vehicles we might have to use. We did not drive it, work on it but we saw it.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
SFC Casey O'Mally
>1 y
SSG Roger Ayscue I haven't seen any hate.

You asked why. You are being told why. That's not hate, it's explanation.

A fam fire isn't a bad thing, per se. But it isn't the best thing. And when you have finite resources - and time is a resource - you have to prioritize.
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1LT William Clardy
1LT William Clardy
>1 y
I hope you'll excuse some nitpicking, SFC Casey O'Mally, but you just missed the mark with your concluding sentence.
We need to insist that NCOs do their job. And commanders.
A trained mob is still just a mob, not an organized unit.
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1SG Frank Rocha
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Your question is valid but the challenge is that the answer isn't very simple. There was a time that training to be a leader didn't come from any formal school. It came from NCO's and Officers that had "figured things out" and developed a knack for it then subsequently passed it on to their subordinates. This included training on anything to any extent but at some point the military fell into what i have come to call their "age of Aquarius", a term taken from the 70's hippie movement, where they decided that wasn't sufficient and they needed a formal school to develop leaders (instead of through their officers and NCO's) and it has gained traction from there adding more and more to the saturation point we see it at now.

The addition and/or subtraction of specific training in BCT seems to follow this same pattern of logic. They seem to imply that the trust in officers and NCO's at the unit level to train Soldiers adequately in certain disciplines, functions or equipment is so low that they feel they need to do it themselves or conduct it at a time, place and manner that they can be sure the training took place and to standard.

Now I can't be entirely sure but that's my take on it.
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
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Edited >1 y ago
Chances of FNG getting a pig are slim to none. He would be ammo bearer and assistant gunner before he was gunner. Plenty of time to learn.
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SSG Roger Ayscue
SSG Roger Ayscue
>1 y
MAJ Ronnie Reams well sir, both my wife and I were M-60 gunners as PFC's and below.
My first night in Germany, in 1983, as a Private, I was laying in the barracks and the first time in my life I heard the Air Raid Siren! I had not gotten TA50 or a weapon assigned so I was given the TA50 of a guy that was AWOL and you guessed it, they signed me a M-60 GPMG. Luckily, I had qualified on one in Basic Training, I knew how to load and fire it and had carried it on both the 10 and 12 mile road marches. My wife was in a Divison Support Unit in 2 ID as a PFC and as a M-60 gunner when she got assigned to DISCOM.

So it does happen.
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SPC James Neidig
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Back In 79 At Marine Basic, We Qualified With M-16s , Threw Grenades And Fam Fired 1911s .
When I Got To My Permanent Duty Station As Huey Aircrew We Were Issued S&W 45 Revolvers And Trained On M-60s , M-2s And GAU-2B Chain Guns
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SPC Bill Bailey
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When I went through BCT/AIT in the mid 60s we trained on EVERYTHING an 11B would use (I was an 11B) from the M14 to land mines, everything in the Infantryman's catalog before we went to AIT, iirc, it was only about an hour introductory session on each weapon. Some in person, like hand held/crew served weapons, others like landmines were in classrooms.
In AIT we got Advance hands on training on those weapons (inc. one day on Mortars). Later I switched to an 11E (Armor crewman), but I still retained those skills. How much of it I would ever use again would be questionable (I never did), but I had a basic understanding of how to use it should the need arise. To send a non combat arms soldier into an area where trouble may happen suddenly, without warning, as has happened, without the basic skills to operate a light/heavy machine gun or Mk 19 is the same as sending them in unarmed, it's unconscionable.
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SFC Senior Drill Sergeant
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It comes down to time. BCT schedules are VERY strict and are set by TRADOC; unfortunately, there isn’t a lot of time dedicated to familiarization of crew serves. Funding is also a huge part; it costs roughly 80k to train one soldier, not including the cost of ammunition, and trainees run through 7.62 like cough drops. Detailed crew serve training just isn’t sustainable.
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SSG Roger Ayscue
SSG Roger Ayscue
>1 y
My last assignment was in TRADOC and I wrote POIs and TSPs. I understand that it boils down to dollars and cents. But I also understand that TRADOC has eliminated basic soldier skills to insert training that is best done at units if at all.
No soldier should graduate from BCT without knowing at least how to load and fire any weapon system they are likely to encounter.
This includes the M16/M4, M9/M17, the M203 and the M249/240. The M240 and M249 both being from FN have similar cycles of operation and fire controls.
When another shooting war happens, TRADOC will beat their chests and men with stars on their collars will clear their throats, gain the courage to tell civilian politicians to stop being good idea fairies, and the POI will become Battle Focused again.
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SFC Senior Drill Sergeant
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SSG Roger Ayscue I definitely agree with you and I hope things change. The standards are non existent nowadays. I just got off the trail and I can’t tell you how many kids couldn’t even qualify with an M4. The next war is going to be rough for sure; somewhere along the way, the powers that be forgot that these kids are our replacements.
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SSG Roland Shelton
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We were trained on 50 cals and m60s when I went through basic.
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MSG 1st Sergeant
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They took "US Weapons" out of the BCT POI about 3 years ago, not exactly sure why, probably money.
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SSG Roger Ayscue
SSG Roger Ayscue
>1 y
Well, MSG (Join to see) from my time in TRADOC it is a combination of three things: 1) Money, 2) Some Officer making an over reaching, Broad Sweeping correction to a single incident that some politician has raised hell about, and/or 3) Some politically correct politician or civilian official wants to use the Army as a laboratory for some social engineering experiment that will pander to the weak minded voter that elected them.
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