Posted on Jul 29, 2019
Capt Michael Wilford
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Please understand, I am NOT bagging on the Army here, I am simply asking a question based on my own observations. I served two tours on two different Army posts and witnessed first hand how lower enlisted soldiers (PV1 through SPC) interacted with soldiers of higher rank (CPL through SSG) and I found their lack of respect and lack of discipline to be a bit disturbing. So, my deeper question is this; is this perceived problem of discipline due to the size of the Army as compared to the Marine Corps where we do not have this type of discipline issue, is it due to smaller unit cohesion, or is it something else? I am writing a white paper on military discipline and any information will be helpful. Remember, at the end of the day, we are one military with different missions toward the same end goal, so please do not use this thread as a means to bash other branches of service. I have not done that to the Army; I have great respect for the Army and for its mission and I am simply looking for others' observations about discipline.
Posted in these groups: Discipline1 DisciplineEnlisted logo EnlistedUcmj UCMJ
Edited 6 y ago
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SSG Curtis Vaughn
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Call it what it is, lack of discipline and respect growing up, thinking they are entitled. When these individuals enter service is the time to mold them teach them, stress card my butt. Things have changed so much, Officers aren't staying in their lane and letting NCOs do their job. NCOs letting Officers do there job, I come from a generation where NCOs lead the way. NCOs train your Soilders to do your job give them responsibility and hold them to a standard. You'd be surprised
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LT Michael Conquest
LT Michael Conquest
6 y
In the Navy we called it deck plate leadership. Sr. Enlisted are the ones who run our military and must be given the ability to do so without the handicaps they have to deal with. Their officers must support them and do whatever they can to help them do their jobs. Note: that does not mean micro-manage or do their jobs for them.
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PO3 Alex Bravo
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Isn't obvious? A generation expecting entitlements and it is not only the enlisted personnel, it all throughout the whole armed forces at almost all levels. The brass is allowing it and they are the biggest responsible (or irresponsible) for it.
I started in 1996 and left in 2001 wanting to come back and rejected due to a physical injury in 2003. Because I could not come back, I became a civilian chemist while most my buddies went from enlisted personnel to officers ranks.
My buddies are the embodiment of success through sheer intelligence and persistence. However, when I speak with about half of them (still serving), they act like children and do not know what is going on around the world. This is part of their job, to understand and act to protect our country. The top brass that allows for this immaturity must pay regardless of rank and position. Discipline starts at the top and unfortunately, it supposed to start with our commander in chief (not to be political but behavior critical). That is not happening and so, how do you expect to impart discipline when the mature and the military top brass act like entitled children?
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SGT Human Resources Specialist
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Yes, this is long but it goes a long way to be a little more insightful and consider the different aspects of why it is of what you see. Of course there is a broad range of multiple issues but I emphasize clearly on the well-being of soldiers.

It is the lack of commitment, trust, and competence of leaders who allow disrespect and indiscipline to run rampant. Although I would love to introduce the motion of political integration, instead I will focus on what truly matters.

Upon entering service we are indoctrinated about the values in leadership, as well as how it is implemented, but most of all our commitment to the welfare of soldiers. Units rely heavily on the individual efforts of troops, especially Non-Commissioned Officers and their subordinates upon mission accomplishment. New soldiers to their first unit are motivated and willing to perform but over time being overlooked for skill level expansion and overworked without recognition or much needed mentorship to excel can and will evolve soldiers to become less compliant or the common ‘shitbag’ status perceived we all love to share.

I’ve seen many soldiers who seemed perfect in fact, but due to leadership and the works of our system they get burnt or just exit service altogether realizing the propaganda of recruitment well overrated as well as their potential best utilized elsewhere. Those who have stayed in, either complain and do nothing or idle by on benefits along for the ride of early retirement, unless you have other reasons for staying in.

It is challenging to find good leaders who not only empower soldiers to better themselves but be reliable and trustworthy. Understandably many leaders lose competence over the focus of progression and with the army changing promotions and performance expectations this not only encourages this but also strays further from soldiering in order to meet desired standards. I could invest time to train soldiers but time for myself to involve civilian education, military schools, and performance upon duties & responsibilities, not to mention taking on additional tasks for broadening evaluation performance is literally drained. Don’t forget you’re mix of training requirements, mandatory monthly briefings, and the mission requirements leaving you blown away at the thought of anything more than counseling’s as a resolve. Although how many of you honestly keep up with those? Also for those who do more to make connections and various achievements, good for you.

Also important to note these qualities mean nothing when seeking key positions in order for better chances of guaranteed promotion and progression. A pulled record brief and interview will value the personality and the preferred background performance of the individual whether they fit the bill or not. So don’t stress the importance of being a good leader just whether or not you can fulfill the job requirements expected of you. Quite interesting but sometimes for the best.

I can’t entirely blame leaders for not being leaders through responsibilities and expectations but preventable deaths and consistent disappointment in the system to better the lives of soldiers has taken its toll. The lack of discipline reflects this with acknowledging there are different forms of respect and undisciplined behavior. There is always drama with soldiers over leaders and consistent childish behavior especially with social media but well deserved to how these leaders are leaders in the first place. I must say it is an embarrassment to see more junior soldiers competent in their MOS over non-commissioned officers including things leaders should already know again trumped by junior soldiers. Substandard. Do you not know the implications of that?

So we could look at generational changes, pathetic parenting in what kids are as of now, but lets be realistic and take a deep breath. What we have going on within upon the health verses wealth debate. But yes, it is much different to the Marines Corps of course and your perception of discipline far from what I could maybe imagine to be or out of this world. Personally I lead in a way soldiers can trust as well as confide in me at anytime and provide independence within their roles to strengthen confidence and competence.

It is annoying to see those junior soldiers who have acted like some of the responses below just knowing then I would have been knocked out on the spot but really because they proceed to run to IG or whatever program to hide behind for their actions. They have yet to meet the fear of god honestly.

Curiously, what do you do to enhance soldiers for success and the perceived expectation of discipline? Also for those undisciplined and disrespectful, what resolved it?
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SCPO Anthony Wingers
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Start in bootcamp. Return to sixties level. Do not let anyone out of boot without meeting strict standards of behavior and discipline. Actually punish wrong-doers with article 15. It that does not work move it up to spec ct martial. Assign hard labor for those found guilty. Make sure everyone else sees the example. Sweat in training or bleed in combat.
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SPC Team Leader
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Bring back hazing or at least real smoke sessions. Get rid of entitlement in the ranks. Having leadership that cares enough to discipline, but also to teach. I have had some amazing NCOs who have smoked the dog shit out of me and who commanded respect, but they’re the same ones I would run through a wall for. I’d follow them into combat any day, in any situation. They are the ones who also taught me how to be tactically and technically proficient. They built trust and set clear expectations. They took ownership of the team, squad, platoon, etc. To the point that it made me want to be better and take more ownership over what I could control to try and pull some burden off their back. The Army has hamstrung it’s good leaders and promoted to many unqualified leaders who could run well. When boards become about finding the intangibles instead of seeing who can regulations and creeds or pt scores pissing contests then they will begin to see a culture change again
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SSgt Max Gonzales
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From what I've seen, standards have been lowered,to accommodate our new troops. Can't understand why,the military would be willing to coddle them. We were a tight knit unit all the way through basic. after we got our assignment, were expected to carry ourselves according to military protocol. If not disciplinary action was taken.
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SPC Rob Lewis
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IMO, when the military started giving out participation awards and becoming a social club(gender issues, non-deployment, lowering of standards) vs. killing people and breaking things =. The military as a whole started down a path that it is having problems recovering from today.
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SPC John Decker
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I believe it has more to do with an easing of the punishments, at training level, for lack of respect infractions. I don't know if they still exist (though I know they once did) but I heard some stories about "time-out" cards being issued to basic trainees. I was in before they existed. That added to this "everything is offensive to somebody" mentality that seems to be permeating our culture is surely a big part of what you're seeing.
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CW3 Chief Of Police
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The military reflects the greater society if comes from. Young people today are not as disciplined as older veterans. They were raised to be selfish, not selfless. A generalization for sure but I believe it to be true. From what I've read, the Marines are not as disciplined now as they once were but I don't have your cross service experience.
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SSG Mark Burke
SSG Mark Burke
5 y
Hear, Hear!!!
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LTC Psychological Operations Officer
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Edited 6 y ago
It appears the Marines are not quite the role model for discipline and respect these days either. Looks like there is a white papers worth of screw ups just at Camp LeJune. ;)

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2019/05/02/crackdown-at-lejeune-inside-the-2nd-marine-division-commanders-controversial-call-for-discipline/
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SPC Jasen E.
SPC Jasen E.
6 y
I read both the aticle you posted and the letter it referenced and am blown away by the push back. Nothing in the spirit of the letter issued by Furness is contrary to what should be followed every day by every branch of service. Those that got in a twist by the haircut comments, for example, leave me dismayed. They knew going into the service, be it Army, Marine Corps, or any branch, that they were going to have maintain certain grooming standards. Yes, killers can still kill with long hair. But that is not the nature of the service you joined. Those rules existed before anyone who serves today joined. You don't like it, don't join. It's that simple. The overall resounding success of the military in general exists because of the discipline, and not just discipline in some areas, but in every area of a person. Every branch needs to get back to that regimented lifestyle. Thank you for posting that article. It was eye opening.
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Capt Michael Wilford
Capt Michael Wilford
>1 y
Thank you, sir, for this eye opening article; you are correct, there are poor examples of discipline everywhere in the service these days. Would you say it is a generational issue that transcends the military and falls on society and the military catches the fallout?
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SFC J Fullerton
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I retired in 2013, so my perspective is a little dated. Discipline always seemed to vary from unit to unit, culture and climate in the organization usually being the main factor. Although, I think every branch probably has its issues and culture/climate being the root cause. For example, the USMC making the news with hazing incidents, usually E-3's and E-4's asserting themselves over the new privates in ridiculous ways. That would be a discipline problem in its own right, but that behavior is frowned upon in public, and condoned behind closed doors. If it is against policy, why does it keep happening? Maybe its the culture. Same goes for poor discipline in some Army units. If its allowed, it becomes the culture and will keep happening until leadership changes the culture.
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SSG Mark Burke
SSG Mark Burke
5 y
"If its allowed, it becomes the culture and will keep happening until leadership changes the culture"
and if stupid shit is happening like that WITHIN a unit after hours, a little stop in to visit by the senior NCO's frequently will be the ears for Top to come in and either ground them or pull out the UCMJ. GET YOUR HOUSE IN ORDER WITH RESPECT!
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SSG Shawn Mcfadden
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Once the army introduced stress cards for the recruits, that was the begining. Also, the young soldiers now have this short term mentality, meaning they don't know or even care that their actions will have long term effects on their careers or even their lives.
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HN Chris R.
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Lloyd James Austin III as secretary of Defense is about as weak as General Patton was outspoken while Gen. Milley is so “woke” he has to study his new enemy, the “ANGRY WHITE MAN” as part of his CRT and indoctrination. Not to mention his phone call Democrat influenced phone call to his CCP counterpart to reassure that he would warn them in case president Trump ordered an attack on China. There lies your problem our alleged leaders from dementia Biden to the whole democratic administration weakening our military.
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SFC Bradley Fighting Vehicle System Maintainer
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For a long time coming, these young enlistees feel entitled, you can’t touch them and are filled with cockiness because it’s become so hard to discipline them. For years even long after my retirement, service members out in public do not have the respect they had for officers, NCOs and veterans. So they get by with things time after time with no consequences for their behaviors. This seem to be carried over from their civilian life. Without discipline, there is no separation of leader and the student.
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SSG James Mielke
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This has been a growing problem for the Active Army since at least '01 and is practically a disease in the Reserves and Nat Guard units.
This all started around 2000/01, the Liberal parent sorts were all worried about training cadres hazing, over-stressing, and emotionally abusing their poor, sweet babies during Basic, airborne, and other schools. In response the Army adopted 'stress cards' for the little darlings going through Basic. These cards were like mood rings; whiny kid puts his/her thumb on the designated area of the card and it turns a certain color based on whatever it was those things "detect". If it turned a certain color, then whiny kid was stressed and drill cadre were no longer allowed do their jobs until the card indicated the kid was no longer being stressed.
(You can probably hear the eye-rolling I am doing)
I am not sure if these cards were used in other training scenarios, like airborne school but I watched a few news articles at the time about airborne qualification badges no longer being blood pinned as had been the tradition because it had upset some parents, who deemed it as hazing.

In Reserve and NG units, the discipline problems stem largely from too much familiarity within the units and the "Good Ol' Boy" syndrome.
It is a literal possibility to become the Top NCO (1SG or CSM) and never, ever leave the unit. Officers get shuffled around a bit more but it is still possible to end up in command of the unit you started as a 2nd Lt. in and still know every senior NCO when you take command as a Capt. or Lt. Col.
Fraternization and the use of first names between all ranks of Enlisted and Officers is very common.
I have also seen 'legacies' join Reserve and NG units; units where fathers and/or grandfathers had been a part of and likely retired from the unit, a good portion of the unit watched these kids grow up.
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PVT J Leonard
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Bit ironic. The one time I got into major trouble was disrespecting a corporal. At the time, the standard to be promoted to corporal at that post, and some said Army wide, was to be infantry, any of the infantry specialties. There were some that were other MOS's, and I was put underneath one. The unit was winding down, as the specialty, HAWK missile batteries, were being discontinued in favor of Patriots. The corporal in question was always giving orders, never followed up or followed through, just reporting to cadre that were working on removing me from the Army(another problem). I was sent out on the last field exercise to use the HAWKs, and was responsible for bring certain requested equipment for the exercise. The corporal was given the request, took it to other cadre, and came back with a different list, less than half of what had been requested for the exercise. I went to the senior NCO I would be reporting to regarding what had been authorized, and no one would return or respond to phone calls. I ended up working directly with my supply sergeant, E-6, who authorized the original request and allowed me to take the equipment. Long story short, come back from exercise to be told I will face charges of theft and misappropriation of government equipment, and no one in the chain of command will assist me in getting said equipment returned to field ready in my allotted 72 hours. Parts that had been donated to get this unit up to speed by me, were requested back if not needed, and low and behold, said corporal suddenly shows up to start yelling about adding even more charges if I return the needed equipment. He threatened me with an a$$ whipping, I told him to bring it on. I lost rank as that chain decided to hold to the letter of all forms of punishment they could meet out over the next two weeks. Yes, I should have not played the game, understood it for the set up that it was. Not my proudest moment in the Army. Sadly, I saw this at all levels of rank, junior through officer, and some dont ever take to heart the responsibility and commitment they are getting themself into, and dont adapt.
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COL Bill Gross
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Individual observations don't add up to a picture of the Army as a totaled. The old expression, exceptional claims require exceptional proofs. To say the Army is going to hell in a hand basket does require some rigorous proof. How you get it is another can of worms.
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SSG Eric Blue
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I think I answered this one already. But in case I didn't, it definitely isn't limited to the junior enlisted. Lack of discipline exists within ALL of the Army populations. I want to say it's the trickle-down effect where Joe or Jane see their leaders do the wrong thing and not face the repercussions of doing the wrong thing or how junior leaders see senior leaders do that same kind of thing and not be held responsible, yet these junior leaders are expected to teach Joe & Jane to "do the right thing" and they respond with something like, "well SFC, 1SG, SGM, LT, CPT, MAJ, or COL so and so did this or that. So why can't do it, too?" It happened a lot during my career.
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TSgt Infantryman
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Causes:
Woke
Cancel culture
LGBTQ+............
CRT
Inclusiveness
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SPC Chris Ison
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Your perception of the situation is wrong. The army has actual people who are being trained to think for themselves, and the marine corps has a bunch of fanatics running around trying to be the ultimate marine.

Furthermore, if you were interacting with reservists and National Guardsmen, then you were dealing with a completely different set of people.

I was specialist in my unit, I had a master's degree in Public Administration, and I supervised 5 employees, who were professional planners. When I worked retail going through University, i ran a store with 30 employees. That means as a specialist, I had more managerial experience and direct leadership experience than my Platoon Sergeant who was a Correctional Officer in a prison, with no supervisory role. My platoon leader was fresh out of Officer Basic Course, and was some type of set designer for the film industry, and he literally did not know shit about being on active duty, let alone anything about how to run a scout platoon.

And MY BN Co? his active duty time consisted of making 3rd class as an HM int he Navy, and then spending the rest of his time as some type of AGR administrator for the counter drug operations. My BN XO was a PFC in the Marine Corps before getting his commission, and my fucking company commander had been in the guard so long he had a federal commission with an ASSOCIATES DEGREE, after, wait for it... serving in the Marine Corps as a PFC.

We as enlisted men ran our unit, because the officers were worthless, and in many situations the NCO's were too.
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