Why does the Army appear to have a discipline issue with the lower enlisted ranks?

TOP Furr is correct. From what I have seen (besides men holding hands in uniform; I guess that's alright but don't get caught kissing a female if you are a male; there's rules about that undermining discipline) . I don't care who you plank off hours but keep the same standard. That's the crux. A lack of stressors on troops from the 1st day is probably the genesis of the problem EX: The last mission or operation I was in; in Africa. Our JSOTF had been up 36 hours to include crew time which was busted somewhere that day; nobody remembers. it was during the Rwandan disaster. We were in the field SCIF when an airman walked in from the JTF and wanted to see me as I was the JSOTF J4. I told him that I would get with him in a few (as I was busy with 5 senior NONCOMS and POs and the OPSO) and please leave the SCIF. The guard literally fell out at his seat so he walked in. The airman said he wanted to talk now and I politely told him to get the fuck out or he would be arrested by the SPs. He came back a few minutes later with a sorry assed AF provider. Our JSOTF senior enlisted was a STS type, E-8. Former 24 STS type. bad ass. The provider wanted to know who I was and he began a soliloquy of why I was "mean" to his E2 by saying "FUCK". The Ranger commo guy and Senior MSG XXXX pulled me off the couple. They never came by the JSOTF but they sent written messages. But the point is WTF is E2 "Smedley" lack of a tough skin because I said the word FUCK? BTW who is he? This was serious business and this kid wanted to see me tight then and there. WTF?

reading all the responses reminds me of the six blind men of indonesia .The parable of the blind men and an elephant originated in the ancient Indian subcontinent, from where it has been widely diffused. However the meaning of the popular proverb differs in other countries. It is a story of a group of blind men, who have never come across an elephant before and who learn and conceptualize what the elephant is like by touching it. Each blind man feels a different part of the elephant's body, but only one part, such as the side or the tusk. They then describe the elephant based on their limited experience and their descriptions of the elephant are different from each other. In some versions, they come to suspect that the other person is dishonest and they come to blows. The moral of the parable is that humans have a tendency to claim absolute truth based on their limited, subjective experience as they ignore other people's limited, subjective experiences which may be equally true.
so each man was part right, but blind to the whole truth. :-) USMC 1961 1965

Anecdotal information should not be used as fact in developing a White Paper on any subject. Just saying...

This is said countless of times through different generations, one constantly trying to out brag the one after the next. There’s nothing stopping a PV2 who doesn’t care anymore to tell their 1SG to “Shut up”, that’s not a generation thing that’s a individual thing, always has been. Senior leaders see what they want to see, they see the one soldier not going to parade rest for the 1SG, but not the group of junior enlisted who’s ready to do anything in the world their NCOs tell them to make an impression and be a great group of Soldiers. The Army is huge, you’re going to see a lot more discipline issues then you would in the Marines, nothing a good nco can fix.

When I was a Buck SGT. I had one of my Pvt's tell me I didn't have enough rank to tell him what to do. When I got thru with him, he had no doubt that I did indeed have enough rank.

Because I've been out so long (retired in 2002), I can't really comment intelligently about army discipline now, but I can say this is not the first time and probably not the last time the army has had to and will have to go thru this cycle. During and after the Vietnam War the army had serious discipline problems including near mutiny in isolated incidents.

Because you’re dismissing them as ‘lower enlisted’ instead of mentoring them as ‘junior enlisted’

Honestly I wouldn’t use the “army” as a whole soldier discipline has always been maintained at a nco level Iv seen soldiers with great discipline and some without any and it’s been directly related to first line supervisors and their interactions by getting comfortable with their soldiers. It’s a lifestyle that’s what the army is it is not a job it’s a life style change and people seem to want to be liked by their own soldiers which they don’t go about it the proper way and leave room for that indiscipline. If I as a Sgt ever saw my soldier not go to parade rest talking to any NCO or attention to any officer then I correct them on the spot and make sure to fix it if my soldier ever felt it was ok to tell a 1sg he isn’t better then him because if his rank then I failed somewhere but I’d be damn sure to fix it quick. My soldiers discipline and any soldier 1-4 discipline is directly related to how they are trained and taught yea you have that one soldier. Who does what he wants well that’s easy to fix process him out of the military if he can’t play by our rules

At a previous duty station a general asked the ORSA team to answer this exact question. After collecting the data and running a regressive analysis on it, it wasn’t rank that was the defining predictor. It was age and to some degree, whether or not you lived in your own between Mom’s house and the Army. But it was an interesting age relationship because the curve dips down for folks around 25 to 35, but then cycles up so there is some lack of discipline uptick in higher ages. A lot of that was due to the SIR data. Lots of domestic spouse on spouse issues with the higher ages that resulted in disciplinary action. There is also a lot of variance between MOSs suggesting there is some leadership differences among our various job branches or our branches tend to attract different types of people.

I have been out for a few years now but I would think it is not any worse now then ever before. I believe a lot of kids join the military for a variety of reasons and some of them become disenchanted quickly and fall back to their undisciplined ways.

The major problem is guys are getting promoted at a rapid pace some guys still wet behind the ears in the Army have not even deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan and they already Ssg

Just like you said, it’s not only the jr. enlisted. Unfortunately it’s not new.
Back in the early 90’s, my company had a SSG. Once he got in his car (while still in BDU’s). He would remove his cover & put on a Malcom X hat.
When his superiors would try & correct him. He would play the race card, even on the Top who was Hispanic.
So nothing got resolved.

It is adaptation to today's culture. Everyone is so easily offended and we don't want that. AR 350-6 is Trainee Leadership, and the trainee has many more rights under it than someone who has never been in TRADOC could ever understand. And the Privates are briefed on it from day one at the Reception Station. Some of it is good, some not. They cancelled end of course testing for Basic, give out a participation trophy patch in a "patching ceremony" because the Privates don't have combat patches and are jealous. What Division Commander was it that was going to forbid senior personnel from wearing combat patches because the Privates hadnt' earned one?

I can not say for sure. Its stands to reason that the government has run over the military as a whole. They have to have better training and higher physical standards in some cases. Drill instructors are not able to do there job. Sreamong is not there job. Training is.

The Army’s discipline started to slide in 2005 from what I observed personally. But so did the Marine Corps. I will never forget a bunch of marines at Fort Irwin (NTC) who decided to drink in the cantonment area and run their mouths like little kids. A SSG had to police up not just his joes, but the LT as well. It was very sad and pathetic to watch.
Generally speaking, discipline varies based on environment. Combat arms will always have more discipline than a medical unit for example, and for good reason. An E3 in a medical unit must be able to question a doctors (officer) orders and ask the why if needed. The doctor has to recognize a teaching moment vs. a PFC preventing a mistake. In combat arms, if you are told to take the hill, you take the damn hill. These behaviors affect overall discipline.

It begins with recruitment, the size of the Corps has always lent to the availability of recruits, the Corps can afford to pick and choose from the nations available population. The mere size of the Army and recruiting challenges results in waiver after waiver from the available population. Those with prior service and RE codes that are unfaivorable, young adults with backgrounds who have files sealed, etc. when you shake the tree of the Few and the Proud the pool to refill the ranks is large, when you shake that tree from an Army of many the pool is reduced.

Once in service the culture of our citizens begins to take shape within the ranks, tats, hair styles, mommy issues, the why generation and simply the why not generation. Those who did not respect their teachers, and parents will not likely respect the authority of those they do not know. Once it is evident that they are not fitting in, the process begins. Unfortunately that leads to what else culture provides, young leaders who have slid up in an environment based in questions.

These young leaders who are ill equipped based on the own moral fiber and lack of true identity, fail to coach, council and mentor in a way that is substantive. Back to the tree, the Marine tree is a bush in the grand scheme, the Army’s in essence a forest.

This had been true for decades, I entiered service in 1980, culture had both positive and negative effects, even though discipline was at a peak, there were those who failed to make the grade and were sent home in short order. The forest has deep roots, the trees before the forest will always stand tall, the saplings who fall will be either better or lesser for the ware. Society is he root cause, reshaping men and women is more challenging as society has become much more of a complex machine.

I ramble but if you read into the text, you will find that it is as it was, it is simply bigger and more complex, the issue of societal norms, Family values, and Core beliefs. Is the top 1 percent the same as it was, and who exactly is competing for them, while offering what they lack.

Thank you for your service.

The first question that comes to mind: from where did these low-rank recruits learn to be disrespectful? They had to see it occurring elsewhere & decided to emulate it. Meaning someone of higher
rank failed to enforce discipline. Oh oh......now the recruit has the green light to continue his path to eventual dishonorable discharge.
Now my next question: what favor is a soldier of higher rank doing to that recruit by failing to enforce discipline?
What I mean is: eventually that recruit will return to civilian life & there’s no company I know that’ll put up with undisciplined behavior reinforced while in the military.
So now we have an undisciplined vet with no job and probably an arrest record.
All because one individual of higher rank was too lazy to enforce discipline several years earlier. Perhaps that one moment of reinforcing discipline could have changed the life story of a former refusenik.

Lots of great comments- I agree with 99%, but I’ll offer another thought.

Is some of this the cause of the protracted GWOT? I think the lack of professionalism in the Army at the end of Vietnam was pretty well documented.
Leaders churn and burn so fast and so many were simply biding time to get out, discipline was someone else’s problem. Add in what everyone else is saying, but I think a constantly deploying force will suffer a drop in professionalism over time.

Just a thought.

Let me add my 2 cent into this, its because a lot of high ranking people think they are more of a person than say the lower enlisted and they had enough. Remarks complete

IMO because much of the NCO corps has lost its backbone. We spend way too much time coddling and "mentoring" and much less time enforcing standards. When I was a private my leaders asked me to do nothing. I was told what to do and how to do it. I get frustrated with an endless string of "why?" after giving simple, concise, and clear instructions. I once told a new private to go ask top the question of why. They returned and the private in the front leaning rest was told, "why...because I directed you to." I'm not going to answer why on the battlefield and someone's hesitation or less than full commitment may get someone or some people needlessly killed. I am sick of why.