Why does the Army appear to have a discipline issue with the lower enlisted ranks?

I’ve seen E-8s and above have discipline issues as well not SFCs and below only difference upper echelon and Senior Ncos so called standard bearers have more accessibility to cover up their faults. The standards come from the top so if they aren’t making effective changes holding standards it trickles down to the lowest level

The problem is NCOs not doing their jobs and a chain of command not doing anything to fix the NCOs or back NCOs when they try to discipline soldiers. The really sad thing is the Army will promote these problem soldiers to NCOs and the problem just continues.

The issue isn't only with the lower enlisted. he issue is ARMY wide, from the top down.

2005 FLARNG 164th ADA, annual training at Ft Stewart GA. I was a (VERY) salty SPC. (6 years prior service USMC, 19 year break in service, 14 years law enforcement as a road deputy sheriff) I was put in charge of a few tasks to be completed out in the field operations specifically the TOC. I had a PV1 and a PV2 literally tell me NO, they didn't want to do that. Too bad!!! I tried explaining to them beforehand why they need to follow orders, we're not friends, buddies or pal's, we are soldiers doing soldier shit! I chewed them out until they thought I was going to beat them. When I finished they both went straight to a Lt Col which was near by and heard most of the exchange and complained, The light Bird called me over while playing dumb and asked me what the issue was, after stating my apologies for the two PVT's not following the chain of command I explained the issue. I believe the Lt. Col just wanted to see if I was speaking truthfully. The Light Bird acknowledged my apology and proceeded to light-up the PVT's [The Lt Col was prior enlisted, Army Special Forces].. A few days later I got my ass chewed by a couple E-'7's [later found out the E-7's were banging both PVT's] The Lt Col had seen this but said nothing at the time.

A few more days later we were in morning formation and given instruction's that upon leaving the Mess Trailer we were to grab 2 MRE's each for our mid day and evening rations. Come mid day meal I went to find some shade and I saw a PVT looking around at everyone with their MRE's. The PVT seemed confused so I approached him and asked what the problem was,. The PVT stated he was wondering where everyone got their MRE's. I said, did you not listen in formation this morning. He informed me that he had been on an early morning detail and wasn't in formation. He said he never got to eat breakfast either. I was dumbfounded that his platoon leader hadn't procured any food for this young PVT. I walked him over to the mess trailer to attempt to help him get a couple MRE's. The mess trailer detail was of zero assistance from the E-8 down. I then handed the PVT my MRE and told him to let me have anything he didn't want. I wound up with crackers.

Now remember the two E-7's that were banging the two young PVT's from earlier, Well they watched me give the PVT my MRE. NEITHER heard our conversation nor did they know why the PVT didn't have any MRE's all these 2 doucheknuckles knew was here is a PVT with no food and now I gave my food to him so NOW I have no mid day meal. These two fools proceeded to light me up once again. I stood there and took the ass chewing, verbal assaults, name calling and all round belligerence. When they seemed to be finishing up, here come the Lt. Col who apparently had seen what I was doing for the PVT and had actually heard part of the conversation. I locked up, the two E-7's stood there all cocky until the Lt Col. made them lock it up while telling me to relax. The Lt. Col had me explain to the two douchnozzles WHY I was giving up my MRE and that the PVT was away prior to to formation so he never got the instructions to grab two MRE's AND that he never got breakfast. I further explained that the VERY FIRST thing any Marine NCO is taught, TAKE CARE OF YOUR TROOPS! That is why I gave up my food to the PVT. The Lt Col dismissed me and the PVT. As we walked away I heard two E-7's getting a serious verbal reprimand. Both wound up with official sanctions in their records. As for me, I wound up with a little green and white ribbon and a piece of paper to wipe my ass with but more importantly, I also wound up gaining more respect from the junior enlisted and officers...

My point is, it's NOT just the junior enlisted with the attitude and discipline problems.

I'm afraid thats characteristic of society in general Garbage in garbage out !!!

If there is a discipline problem with any grade it is due to the Senior NCO and Officers. If they do not exercise their command powers a should be there will be a problem with the troops below them.

I noticed the same thing too , I figured it's because some of these soldiers are young . I'm 37 and only started 3 years ago, the reason why I joined , long story short , child support is a sonava bish , I thought maybe its because lack of bad life experiences, because to me , despite the things I put up with the army , is still better than putting up with BS in the civilian world. The army is actually better, should've enlisted forever ago , better late than never i guess.

This is something during my time I saw on a continuous basis. Not called for and I did not put up with it. When I was a young enlisted man in the Navy, I saw some of it and was really put out by it, my second and third tour of duty was as a Corpsman with the Marine Corps. I'm telling you, day one with the Corps, I learned there was a big separation between E-1 to E-2 to E-3 and beyond. You called no one by their first name unless you were the same rank or the other lower in rank to you. Discipline was everything there and stuff got done faster, better, and more of it because we just did it, didn't talk back and wanted to get it done and get on to other things. Later, when commissioned and I was an OIC I would witness how some younger enlisted sailors were addressing higher ranking, Chiefs even. I pulled the Chiefs aside and said, they were to take care of it or we would all be talking about it at 3:00 a.m. in the conference room. That happened twice, people didn't like it and discipline got better. I leaned on my senior enlisted leaders to change the culture, and they did. I really believe the younger enlisted appreciated the discipline, knew where they stood at all times and were well recognized for their military demeanor. Don't ever give in on discipline, get on it, in an operational or wartime scenario, it may save someones life.

capt wilford: the military forces create their own leaders, enlisted and officer. few persons entering military service are blessed with military leadership knowledge, understanding, and application when compared to those leaders who were taught military protocol, leadership fundamentals, and hierarchy. boot camp actually did little to teach me leadership, but did a lot to show me how to follow orders. big difference there. as i moved around to three different military branches, rising through the enlisted ranks i saw many examples of enlisted and officer leadership, but i'll say this: what they all had in common was respect for the chain of command. having served in viet nam gulf of tonkin in the 60's, and 20years later as a reservist in the marines and the army i saw a generational alteration in military discipline. one petty officer friend of mine, he was active duty on a nuc carrier, said there was this thing called a "card". if a sailor felt or believed he/she was being stressed (whatever the etiology) they could apply the card to the situation and it would relieve them of facing the issue, or something like that. i really dont know first hand about that but it is what i remember being told in early part of the 20's. i was retired in 2004.

i believe now that boot camp needs to be disciplined from day one. raise the standard, not lower it. recruits believe it because they see it on television, they dont know any better. but discipline needs to be mixed with leadership principles, not just in the classroom dogma, but shown what leadership is through cited example. my own military examples of leaders was based more on chain of command. if you had the badge you wore it. if you didnt you followed it. that simple. a couple of recruits in my boot unit were sent home for lack of discipline. for inability to accept orders. maybe these days the standard for getting in is lowered, and the means of staying in is lower still. in any case a great divide exists between officers and enlisted, and even within the enlisted ranks there seems to be a civilian like approach to everything military. a leader raises up, not pummels down. a leader empathizes but gets the message across. a leader shows the way not just hands you a map and walks off. maybe to sum it up, a leader gets his hands dirty, but doesnt let the dirt stay under his fingernails.

PS: for me the whole military went to shit when women were integrated into the most personal close contact situations. can a woman make a good fighter pilot, yes. can she carry, drag or cover a 200 pound wounded male from the enemy in a fire fight - maybe, maybe not. i wouldnt want my life to be the one to bring out the answer.

praise be to god and country. gerald

The ARMY needs to get back to the time before it became a Boy Scout Camp. I went to Basic in 1968.
That was the REAL ARMY. Discipline was #1 seams that today no one cares ! I say go back to the Draft. Start over again make it REAL!!! Not a Game. I Retired it 1989 and can say that I'm a PROUD Vietnam Veteran.

We have a group of leaders that grew up in combat and are great combat leaders, but do not know how to lead in garrison, which is just as important. I understand they are tired (been there, done that) and want to spend time with their families, but Soldiers still need their leadership when the combat mission is over and the garrison mission begins. Stop texting your leadership decisions, put your phones down and lead.

There is little interaction in the Marine Corps between various ranks. The Army's discipline problem went up because of Sergeant Smith becoming a drinking buddy on weekends. Keeping yourself separated is a lonely prospect. You have to be approachable, and yet a mystery to your subordinates. They can't know if you have a wife, children, or anything else about your background. Officers are commissioned and the good ones stick to this to maintain good discipline among the ranks. There's an old saying I'm sure everyone here is familiar with-----Farmililarly breeds contempt---the words were never truer.

CPT, your talking apples, oranges and the truth. The Marines do a great job of instilling traditions and implanting the thought that every Marine is a capable infantrymen. The truth is it takes months of training and actual experience to be a good infantrymen, the warrior, the heart and soul of the military. Serve with the top line units in the Army and you will see something more important than discipline, you will see professional soldiers capable of doing their jobs on a moments notice and I would say that about any branch. Look at the Air Force, whenever I had to deal with them they were always so laid back, but could they get job done in a professional manner, hell yea. I would be more concerned about your units first time servers reenlistment rate, rather than worry about other services discipline issues, cause that will tell you a lot about how your people truly view your services discipline.

I definitely see it as multifactorial, sir. People love generalities, but I’m sure your white paper will inform you that the trend is not actually a trend in any one area. As I am sure you are aware, units strive to avoid public awareness of disciplinary issues by “handling it at the lowest level” and those reports rarely go up the chain. So I suspect the actual problem is much worse than we ever realize. However, that being said, my experience tells me the right early intervention in leadership makes most of the difference. As a drill sergeant I frequently encountered soldiers that arrived with a multitude of factors impacting their ability to train effectively. Some were overly motivated and didn’t know how to temper that while others were told they were garbage their entire lives and had zero self-confidence. We decry changing with the times, but we must meet these soldiers where they are as they come in and overcome those barriers to achieve the proper training outcomes. Once that is accomplished we up the ante until they meet standards. It’s an extremely difficult job and we often run BCT with half manpower further allowing for some to slip through the cracks. I can attest firmly to the fact that someone with low self esteem or low self confidence is easily led astray. We say break them down and build them up, but some of them show up broken. I am currently AGR for a state (switched to ANRG last year) as a recruiter. I can tell you anyone can snow us by being motivated for a few months. Just send a kid I’d have staked my hat on to 11B OSUT in February. He can home last week a quitter. Unfortunately what I’m seeing and hearing based on garbage packets I’d have never let go by as a Senior DS and the soldiers flat lack of knowledge as graduates is their DSs were junk. We need to start by holding the Drill Sergeant Academy accountable for the DSs they produce. Most I’ve worked with were actually the cream of the crop. However, I’ve still worked with many that should’ve never made the cut to go let alone graduated. They infect those young soldiers from the start. If the DSA was held accountable there would certainly be a higher standard of vetting performance. We also need to gauge actual leadership and training ability in that school instead of just memorizing modules and taking a test on trainee treatment standards. People think DS school is difficult, but it’s only challenging for weak NCOs. If they were truly the top 10% of their MOS, they’d all be bored like most I know. The curriculum is and has been a joke. I went in 2010 when it was a lot of written tests, nothing tactical, and a basic shooting course with combatives. Most of what I learned when I went was PRT because it was brand new. The academy should have higher standards all around and though I know we need Drills (ran several cycles solo myself), I could always do more with another competent senior than I could with a full staff of weak NCOs wearing funny hats. Improve the DS Corp (before they graduate the academy not after) and you fix the entire problem in one generation.

I think that this may be something that happens in a somewhat cyclical manner. Immediately after WW2 there were a number of NCO's and junior officers who recieved battlefield promotions based on their combat exploits and bravery rather than their potential for leadership. The result was supervisors who were good soldiers but not good leaders. There were many cases of inappropriate discipline and the use of authority by these individuals. The congress then passed laws withdrawing the authority of staff NCO's to discipline their troops. That resulted in an even greater breakdown of discipline at the opening of the Korean war.

It happened again at the end of the Vietnam war. Availability of drugs, civil disobedience, loss of respect from anti-military protesters and again a reduction in the authority of NCOs.

Recruits must be made to understand from their first minutes in boot camp that the military is not a democracy. Lawful orders will be obeyed and if they are not there will be consequences regardless of whether they come from a corporal, a lieutenant or a colonel. This must be backed up by the chain of command. All supervisors must be well trained and supervised by their superiors (not Monday morning quarterbacked) all the way up the chain.

Good luck.

Perhaps it's because of the younger generation of "snowflakes" available for recruitment these days. Our society in the whole has lost our way in training our youth to take over positions of responsibility and morality in these last two generations. The blame really lies mostly with bad parenting and lack of moral and family structure I think.

Because they took disciplinary actions away from the Drill Sergeants and that started taking in any E5 or E6 just to fill in gaps. No matter if they weren't worth the stripes they wore or not. Oh, let's not forget that there is only 20 % of E5s and E6s who has a take charge attitude and want to lead, the other 80% care about themselves, has no discipline and do not care about structure because they were trained or lack there of by stripe wearers who wasn't developed enough to lead a pack of paper towels .

People, I am steel pot, M14, Vietnam, RA, regular Army Veteran. I joined when I was 17 years old and I am proud to have served. It was drilled into me in my basic training! It showed when I walked, it showed when we marched. I once spoke to a Vietnam Marine Vet and I told him how well they showed their pride when they marched ad how sorry our current Army troops march in their basic training graduation. They look like they are going on a school Outing. He told me something which I will share with you all and I hope the General Staff will hear and listen. The Marines have Pride Drilled into them from basic on , Siemper Fidelis! These guys were so proud they would not let us, Army, help them when they got into trouble. Ha! But we always did, they are American who happen to be Marines. My drill Sergeant drilled into us the Pride of being a Solder and the Honor of defensing our nation. Even when being a Solder was looked down on. WE SERVE WITH PRIDE and HONOR, what happen to our leaders? All the General that retired and served the president are in Jail? Where is the honor the pride??? Where is the Leadership?? Yet they like to be called General...? It starts at the TOP. We lost Viet Nam because of a General. 58,208 guys can testify to that. We won in Kawai because of a General that had what is takes. may he rest in peace. Its going to take a General with honor and pride to correct whats happening and get us all back in step so when we see the Marines or Army march we can say they show they have pride in who they are and give honor to our country. Siemper Fidelis, it was an honor to have served in country with these men. I hope one day they will say the same about us.

A lot of what you are likely se is the result of more than one thing. Promotions that occurred to fast due to former War time. Second some due to lower ranks having seen more combat than their superiors. For example before I retired my Battalion had a MSG who never deployed. We also had Specialist E-4s who had seem multiple deployments. It was difficult for the E-4s to accept that MSG, who never deployed, telling them what they should do to prepare for possible Combat.

Because those lower enlisted ranks were former NCOs who got knocked down to E1? Lol sorry couldnt help but mention it.

The Marines do have this issue. In fact its not uncommon for a a person to enlist into the Army after being thrown out of the Marines and bringing those same discipline issue to the Army. Its not a generational issue, its the fact that laws and regulations have changed. When I was a private in 2004 my drill sergeant was kicked out of boot camp for recruit abuse and trust me the level of hazing that had to take place for that to happen in 2004... you had to be on the verge of killing someone to loose your drill sergeant patch - but he managed to loose it without killing anyone, just sending about a dozen to the hospital with broken bones. That's why they created new laws, to prevent this from taking place and allowing low ranking troops to collect tens of thousands of dollars over their lifetime for being injured on the job via hazing. So once the hazing was cracked down on, their wasn't really anything the higher ups could do to 'discipline' (aka abuse the living shit) out of the junior enlisted, leaving the higher ups unable to function because hazing a junior was their only method of communication. True problem soldiers do exist, but they are fewer of them then others would let on to believe. Nobody likes to talk about the undisciplined officers or the clinically obese SFC. The poor management of good soldiers by higher ups is far more widespread and enough to drive anyone insane.