Posted on Jul 29, 2019
Why does the Army appear to have a discipline issue with the lower enlisted ranks?
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Please understand, I am NOT bagging on the Army here, I am simply asking a question based on my own observations. I served two tours on two different Army posts and witnessed first hand how lower enlisted soldiers (PV1 through SPC) interacted with soldiers of higher rank (CPL through SSG) and I found their lack of respect and lack of discipline to be a bit disturbing. So, my deeper question is this; is this perceived problem of discipline due to the size of the Army as compared to the Marine Corps where we do not have this type of discipline issue, is it due to smaller unit cohesion, or is it something else? I am writing a white paper on military discipline and any information will be helpful. Remember, at the end of the day, we are one military with different missions toward the same end goal, so please do not use this thread as a means to bash other branches of service. I have not done that to the Army; I have great respect for the Army and for its mission and I am simply looking for others' observations about discipline.
Edited 6 y ago
Posted 6 y ago
Responses: 255
If I had to hazard a guess, such disrespect is more likely to occur in places like Afghanistan, rather than other, non-combat areas. I've not looked for any peer-reviewed studies, etc., and this is simply my own opinion on the matter. (Similar things occurred during the Vietnam War...)
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I was in the military back n the 1970's and have not seen this unfortunate cultural decline in America, but I saw it coming. Recruiting commercials targeted less disciplined market researched pop culture fans to make recruiting quotas.
But I did not see how far it would go till I years later I earned my PhD and taught at two universities. Freshmen students who must have cheated they way high school math came to university unable to do 6th grade arithmetic, especially adding or subtracting fractions. In class they always come late and in class they exchange text messages rather than take notes and wait till the last day to do their homework and prepare for their final exams. When they fail they try to negotiate for a passing grade.
I think this decline in culture affects the military too.
But I did not see how far it would go till I years later I earned my PhD and taught at two universities. Freshmen students who must have cheated they way high school math came to university unable to do 6th grade arithmetic, especially adding or subtracting fractions. In class they always come late and in class they exchange text messages rather than take notes and wait till the last day to do their homework and prepare for their final exams. When they fail they try to negotiate for a passing grade.
I think this decline in culture affects the military too.
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From someone that was both Marine and a Soldier. In the Corps we are the best in the world. In the Army (beit active, reserve, NG), it's a joke! I watched Army Staff NCO's act like 6th graders, have complete disregard for the soldiers well being under them and yet demand respect while acting like a child themselves. How are young troops supposed to have any respect for their leadership when the leadership has zero discipline themselves?
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You know what you did not say? What kind of unit it was.
This shit doesn't fly in line companies.
But in Aviation, Medical, and Intelligence it does.
In aviation it is because of the relationship between the aircrew and maintenance, you piss mechanic off and you die.
In medical it is because the officers are not combat oriented and the relationship between the enlisted is very close.
In intelligence it is, generally, because the enlisted have more responsibility than an infantryman.
This shit doesn't fly in line companies.
But in Aviation, Medical, and Intelligence it does.
In aviation it is because of the relationship between the aircrew and maintenance, you piss mechanic off and you die.
In medical it is because the officers are not combat oriented and the relationship between the enlisted is very close.
In intelligence it is, generally, because the enlisted have more responsibility than an infantryman.
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I was a Reservist on active duty from Sept. 25th 2001-October 2003. I had a pvt call me “Dog” I saw privates and specialist totally disrespectful to an NCO when I asked the NCO why he didn’t jump on his ass he said it doesn’t matter his command doesn’t care and won’t do anything anyway.
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The Army has gone soft in my opinion. You have to be so concerned about their feelings , that what you say can be misunderstood and you end up on the carpet talking to the old man because you swore at some troop. The basic training I believe has not done us any justice. I as an E-8 had a E-2 fresh out of AIT , STAND AND TALK TO WITH HER HANDS IN HER POCKETS.....WTF IS THIS ...SERIOUSLY.
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The lack of respect comes before these individuals join the military. Many don't do it for "God and Country" but rather a good paying job with plenty of entitlement benefits. Today's military culture has changed from what it was; simple changes like discipline, mixed genders, physical demands, active homosexuals, even KP duty. Compare nobodies lack of respect with Combat Veterans, you'll see a big difference.
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I would say it is because of the government getting involved with what we do as soldiers and not letting us run the Army the way we were taught to run it.
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Top, here is where discipline starts and that is at home when a child is a toddler. Responsibiliity is handed to them in Elementary School age a little at a time with increasing intensity. Jr High is "no excuse" time and high school is here are the requirements and this is what happens when you don't meet that requirement. When young people grow up understanding that when parents ask their children to do something that is not a wish, that's an order. When my daughter used to ask why she could not or had to do something her Mother's reply was, "'Cause I'm the Mother, that's why." Love and adore your kids but understand they are not your "drinking buddies", you are the PARENT. Your job is to teach them to survive. Watch the animals with their young and you'll get a good lesson in parenting. While they are youung is to make them understand what "penalties" are about. Your job Top is to square them away otherwise you'll be visiting them in jail or they become misfits in society much less the military. You run the Company, take no crap from anyone and let the folks know what the rules are PERIOD and what the consequences are for stepping over the line. When I was a young E-Nobody I thoght my Chief walked on the water, talked to God and had coffee with Him. Giving The Chief a ration of do-do was bad ju-ju. My Dad a retired MSGT squared me away, no excuses. So parents need to do the same thing. Babies when they are born only know two things and they are, "I'm cold and I'm hungry" the rest they learn from us. Unfortunately Top, we wind up being the surrogate Mommies and Daddies 'cause their parents would not take responsibility for their creation.
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I guess I am a dinosaur. Thanks to COVID-19, I just spent 11 months at Pearl Harbor babysitting my grand daughter for my active duty daughter. I think discipline is both better and worse in the military than my day. We were perpetually politically incorrect when compared to civilian standards and firm believers in the 3rd paragraph of Naval Regulations. (Thiese regulations are meant as a guide. You may deviate at your own peril) As an LPO, my daughter's greatest challenge is to avoid offending her subordinates. Currently, there appears to be two channels of military discipline with the UCMJ being superceded by command SOP/regulations rather than being paramount. My daughter was continually facing conflict with a peer who would stop at nothing to make her look bad. When I told her to request mast, she said it would never be "approved". I was amazed a request mast could be disapproved. In my day, disapproval was not an option. When I told her to write up her adversary for conduct unbecoming for lying about situations to have my daughter counter manded, conduct unbecoming was a foreign concept to her.
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<--- Active '74-'85
Lack of discipline has a number of causes; one of which is the overall 'culture' within a command structure. When I enlisted with the Army Security Agency (ASA) in '74 I spent a year stateside going to school (AIT), where everyone adhered to uniform dress code; often with varying levels of success, but at least the effort was made.
At my first posting however, a West German border site, an entirely different standard applied; uniforms were soft because nobody ironed or starched a uniform; boots looked like rawhide because shoe polish was unheard-of; men had hair on their collars & week-old 5 o'clock shadows, and women had ponytails or braids down between their shoulder blades; "respect" was accorded based upon how well one did one's job, regardless of rank. I should note that at the time the Army had two career paths - NCO, and Specialist. It was not unusual to see a Specialist/E7. NCO track had specific 'command authority', while Specialists were more 'technicians', with much less emphasis on command. The overall structure of the ASA was that the Army paid us, but the NSA told us where to go and had operational control. Most civilians at the time didn't give two farts about 'military discipline'; consequently, neither did we.
After a break in service, I rejoined what had become the Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM) which had undergone a major shift in culture because everyone had been "brought back into the fold" of military structure.
Another degradation of military discipline stems from being promoted to supervisory positions without the personal experience of dealing with infractions. Rather than discipline the rule-breaker, the newly-minted NCO would try to just ignore the infraction. Other soldiers in the platoon would see this example and loosen their own personal standards. Even worse, other soldiers - when promoted - would let this example inform/guide their interactions with their own subordinates.
Lack of discipline has a number of causes; one of which is the overall 'culture' within a command structure. When I enlisted with the Army Security Agency (ASA) in '74 I spent a year stateside going to school (AIT), where everyone adhered to uniform dress code; often with varying levels of success, but at least the effort was made.
At my first posting however, a West German border site, an entirely different standard applied; uniforms were soft because nobody ironed or starched a uniform; boots looked like rawhide because shoe polish was unheard-of; men had hair on their collars & week-old 5 o'clock shadows, and women had ponytails or braids down between their shoulder blades; "respect" was accorded based upon how well one did one's job, regardless of rank. I should note that at the time the Army had two career paths - NCO, and Specialist. It was not unusual to see a Specialist/E7. NCO track had specific 'command authority', while Specialists were more 'technicians', with much less emphasis on command. The overall structure of the ASA was that the Army paid us, but the NSA told us where to go and had operational control. Most civilians at the time didn't give two farts about 'military discipline'; consequently, neither did we.
After a break in service, I rejoined what had become the Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM) which had undergone a major shift in culture because everyone had been "brought back into the fold" of military structure.
Another degradation of military discipline stems from being promoted to supervisory positions without the personal experience of dealing with infractions. Rather than discipline the rule-breaker, the newly-minted NCO would try to just ignore the infraction. Other soldiers in the platoon would see this example and loosen their own personal standards. Even worse, other soldiers - when promoted - would let this example inform/guide their interactions with their own subordinates.
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Respectfully, all branches have this problem. Served in the army and navy, and people just haven't been prepared to follow orders. You have to insist and remind them of the nuclear option, obey my orders or you will go to jail. Worked for me!
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hmmm... imo... the Army lost its discipline near the end of Vietnam, when Mommies cried to their Congress that their babies were being treated with disrespect by their Drill Sargents...
Words that insulted and demeaned recruits were banned.
Discipline eroded by whiny BS from people who raised their hands and swore to fight for this Nation...
and expected to not see combat, so discipline meant nothing...
WE HAVE TO BE FRIENDS WITH OUR SUBORDINATES, OR THEY FEEL BAD?
WAR DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THAT.
WAR DESTROYS ALL, REGARDLESS OF FRIENDSHIP.
WAR DEMANDS THAT SOLDIERS WILL HAVE COMBAT DISCIPLINE, OR THEY WILL DIE >(
Until Desert Storm... and a friendly enemy attacked U.S. for saving their oil for them... who Thanked U.S. for shoving Hussein back into Iraq... by sending their Princes to attack U.S. with Jumbo Jets... killing over 3000 U.S. CIVILIANS!
What did we do to Japan, when they sneak attacked U.S. killing nearly 3000 people at Pearl Harbor?
WE ANNIHILATED HIROSHMA AND NAGASAKI, AND SAID "TOKYO IS NEXT IF YOU DON'T SURRENDER RIGHT NOW!"
Now that enemy owns our Auto and Electronics Industries... BY LAW.
Enemy Britain owns our Oil, which they spill all over this Nation... BY LAW.
Enemy China owns our clothing, toys, appliances, metals, AND OUR FOOD PROCESSING!!!!
--> YES! OUR ENEMY... CHINA.... OWNS OUR FOOD PROCESSING... AT THE COMMAND OF OUR TRAITOR CONGRESS!
Trump was NOT Impeached for Colluding with Russia... if you watched, you know the Dems SCREAMED WITH HIGH DRAMA, that CHINA IS THE ENEMY! RUSSIA IS THE ENEMY! NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW! WE'RE AFRAID TRUMP WILL HELP CHINA!!
--> Reality Check: Trump was refusing to help China, by refusing to sign the Trade Deal that now gives China OUR DAIRY PRODUCTS... BY LAW... and we the people now drink CHINESE WATER BUFFALO MILK... While China's children now enjoy our Dairy Cow Milk >(
The Invaders, that our public servants claim are "non-legal aliens", now own our Fast Food Restaurants, and poison U.S. daily with their hate for all things U.S. ... as they enjoy all the blessings of our Liberty... AS INVADERS... BY LAW >(
--> "non-legal" alien = ILLEGAL... CRIMINAL... INVADER.
Now... we love our enemies, and protect them with OUR LIVES?
... and we retaliated against the Saudi King's Sons who sneak attacked U.S. on 9/11/2001 by... PROTECTING THEM FROM U.S.???
ROTFLMAO...
DISCIPLINE IS GONE, UNTIL YOU THE SOLDIERS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA CHOOSE TO PROTECT U.S. FROM OUR ENEMIES... INSTEAD OF GETTING ON YOUR KNEES TO THEM >(
--> THE FIRST ENEMY THAT NEEDS TO BE PUNISHED IS:
THE 6000 PUBLIC SERVANTS OF THE U.S. WHO ARE LEGISLATING FOR, AND ADHERING TO...
--> EVERY ENEMY IN U.S. HISTORY >(
There can be no discipline until the "entitled" generation comes to the understanding they are entitled to be SLAVES... IF THEY DON'T WORK TO PRESERVE THEIR FREEDOM, AND COUNTRY ... WITH THEIR LIVES IF NECESSARY!
Right now... with the Democratic National Socialist Fascist Dictator Party in control of the U.S. ...
I do believe we have already lost, and only our Military can resolve that.
But you choose to whine, instead of fighting for OUR FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY...
SAD.
We are Conquered, just as Khrushchev promised... FROM WITHIN... WITHOUT A SHOT BEING FIRED!
Discipline? There will be no discipline until the conquerors declare themselves to be the Law of the U.S. and the whips start falling on your backs... AND THOSE WHO DO NOT FALL TO THEIR KNEES AND WORSHIP THEIR RULERS... WILL DIE... disciplined with the whips of RULERS.
Then you will realize why discipline and loyalty are required of all soldiers who fight for freedom.
All will ignore this, or hate me for this Truth...
I don't care... I have only one fight left to fight... my death from old age... I WILL lose.
It's your lives now... not mine...
YOU ARE YOUNG... LIVE IN FREEDOM... OR OPPRESSION???
MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICES...
BUT CHOOSE WISELY!!!
Words that insulted and demeaned recruits were banned.
Discipline eroded by whiny BS from people who raised their hands and swore to fight for this Nation...
and expected to not see combat, so discipline meant nothing...
WE HAVE TO BE FRIENDS WITH OUR SUBORDINATES, OR THEY FEEL BAD?
WAR DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THAT.
WAR DESTROYS ALL, REGARDLESS OF FRIENDSHIP.
WAR DEMANDS THAT SOLDIERS WILL HAVE COMBAT DISCIPLINE, OR THEY WILL DIE >(
Until Desert Storm... and a friendly enemy attacked U.S. for saving their oil for them... who Thanked U.S. for shoving Hussein back into Iraq... by sending their Princes to attack U.S. with Jumbo Jets... killing over 3000 U.S. CIVILIANS!
What did we do to Japan, when they sneak attacked U.S. killing nearly 3000 people at Pearl Harbor?
WE ANNIHILATED HIROSHMA AND NAGASAKI, AND SAID "TOKYO IS NEXT IF YOU DON'T SURRENDER RIGHT NOW!"
Now that enemy owns our Auto and Electronics Industries... BY LAW.
Enemy Britain owns our Oil, which they spill all over this Nation... BY LAW.
Enemy China owns our clothing, toys, appliances, metals, AND OUR FOOD PROCESSING!!!!
--> YES! OUR ENEMY... CHINA.... OWNS OUR FOOD PROCESSING... AT THE COMMAND OF OUR TRAITOR CONGRESS!
Trump was NOT Impeached for Colluding with Russia... if you watched, you know the Dems SCREAMED WITH HIGH DRAMA, that CHINA IS THE ENEMY! RUSSIA IS THE ENEMY! NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW! WE'RE AFRAID TRUMP WILL HELP CHINA!!
--> Reality Check: Trump was refusing to help China, by refusing to sign the Trade Deal that now gives China OUR DAIRY PRODUCTS... BY LAW... and we the people now drink CHINESE WATER BUFFALO MILK... While China's children now enjoy our Dairy Cow Milk >(
The Invaders, that our public servants claim are "non-legal aliens", now own our Fast Food Restaurants, and poison U.S. daily with their hate for all things U.S. ... as they enjoy all the blessings of our Liberty... AS INVADERS... BY LAW >(
--> "non-legal" alien = ILLEGAL... CRIMINAL... INVADER.
Now... we love our enemies, and protect them with OUR LIVES?
... and we retaliated against the Saudi King's Sons who sneak attacked U.S. on 9/11/2001 by... PROTECTING THEM FROM U.S.???
ROTFLMAO...
DISCIPLINE IS GONE, UNTIL YOU THE SOLDIERS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA CHOOSE TO PROTECT U.S. FROM OUR ENEMIES... INSTEAD OF GETTING ON YOUR KNEES TO THEM >(
--> THE FIRST ENEMY THAT NEEDS TO BE PUNISHED IS:
THE 6000 PUBLIC SERVANTS OF THE U.S. WHO ARE LEGISLATING FOR, AND ADHERING TO...
--> EVERY ENEMY IN U.S. HISTORY >(
There can be no discipline until the "entitled" generation comes to the understanding they are entitled to be SLAVES... IF THEY DON'T WORK TO PRESERVE THEIR FREEDOM, AND COUNTRY ... WITH THEIR LIVES IF NECESSARY!
Right now... with the Democratic National Socialist Fascist Dictator Party in control of the U.S. ...
I do believe we have already lost, and only our Military can resolve that.
But you choose to whine, instead of fighting for OUR FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY...
SAD.
We are Conquered, just as Khrushchev promised... FROM WITHIN... WITHOUT A SHOT BEING FIRED!
Discipline? There will be no discipline until the conquerors declare themselves to be the Law of the U.S. and the whips start falling on your backs... AND THOSE WHO DO NOT FALL TO THEIR KNEES AND WORSHIP THEIR RULERS... WILL DIE... disciplined with the whips of RULERS.
Then you will realize why discipline and loyalty are required of all soldiers who fight for freedom.
All will ignore this, or hate me for this Truth...
I don't care... I have only one fight left to fight... my death from old age... I WILL lose.
It's your lives now... not mine...
YOU ARE YOUNG... LIVE IN FREEDOM... OR OPPRESSION???
MAKE YOUR OWN CHOICES...
BUT CHOOSE WISELY!!!
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As a civilian worker I have seen a lot of discipline problems a lot of disrespect and a lot of just lotta BS that a lot of the younger military has shown I am not going to classify which branch I see it as a whole. I would not mind talking with you off of here about this if you’d like to see a lot of trainees I work for the military and I wouldn’t mind giving you my opinion which would only be an opinion not a fact but the white but what I see and what I experienced when I was in the army is a total 100° turn around. Let me know if you want to talk
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There are numerous ideals, however you must select a suitable decision to deal with the soldier. Back in the days we were taught as young corporal through to the highest rank how to use your ability to motivate a soldier in anyway shape of form. Even as Drill Sergeants we taught how to deal with soldier at each level. You also must train your younger NCO's on how to deal with smart mouth by applying special details for them to learn to control their mouth. Not all the time are Article 15's and extra duty is going to work . It must be able to use some type of psychology in order to get the soldier attention and maintain that as long as that soldier is assigned to your platoon or section. A lot of these kids have bad home training at home or was raised by their mother's, due to father 's were nowhere around to raised them as gentlemen. At last counseling once every 30 or 10 days shall be use to show the soldier behavior improvements.
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Suspended Profile
I began my career in the Marine Corps and later joined the Army. The difference in discipline begins when you stand on those yellow footprints upon arrival to Marine boot camp. Pride and discipline is instilled relentlessly. It never stops. One of the reasons I left the Marine Corps was the feeling of "endless bootcamp". There is a price to pay for the stric discipline.....it gets old! On the other hand, lack of discipline leads to chaos. I suppose there is a happy medium somewhere but I'm not certain where it lies. I would chafe at times when called "Chief". It was was rendered so nonchalantly. If I called a Marine WO "Gunner", I'd better know him well or all H would break loose. Same applied for "Gunney" for a Gunnery Sergeant. You'd think a salute or a "Sir" is implying servitude. If we want discipline and respect we have to instill it in basic training and continue it at the unit level. However, the respect has to go both ways. If a Soldier doesn't feel mutual respect and know we have his 6, we can't expect his in return.
Maybe a look is needed at how basic training is being conducted in the army.
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