Posted on Apr 20, 2014
Why does the Army not relieve poor leaders of command?
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We are quick to cut NCOs and Jr Enlisted for infractions, but we fail to hold officers to the same standard. If you UCMJ an NCO for DUI, why do officers get a pass? What about extra-marital affairs? I don't understand how officers can hold ourselves so high and be above the standard. The Navy is pretty quick to fire command personnel. Why does the Army choose to keep bad leaders in command, just to allow them to save face?
Posted in these groups: 
Toxic Leadership
UCMJ
Toxic Leadership UCMJ
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 16
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Sir I don't know what you know obviously (by the sound of your claims) but I have seen plenty of Officers "dealt with". I can tell you that I have even seen a COL relieved because his higher leaders lost faith in his leadership abilities, I have witnessed another COL be relieved of his Garrison command because of extramarital affairs, I could tell you the stories of BG Sinclair but I'm sure you know all about that one.
I knew and served under all three of the leaders I mentioned, and those are just a few examples. In that time, I have known of one 1SG to be court martialed, and one SGM be relieved.
I think it is a matter of perspective!
I knew and served under all three of the leaders I mentioned, and those are just a few examples. In that time, I have known of one 1SG to be court martialed, and one SGM be relieved.
I think it is a matter of perspective!
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SPC Nancy Greene
In My Personal Experience, the CG was NOT held accountable at ALL! He was Still CG when I left Germany!CPT (Join to see)
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SGM Erik Marquez
SPC Nancy Greene - "SPC Nancy Greene 15 h
The CG of the Post in Germany was directly responsible for the death of two Soldiers and there was Absolutely NO action taken against Him! I was there! I assisted in processing these Soldier’s Paperwork! How do You account fir THAT ?"
The lack of perspective a very junior enlisted person would have and complete lack of facts known to those that investigated and adjudicated any case such as you describe leave you inadequate to make such a bold claim. Never mind one with zero substance and fact.
Clearly you have a personal opinion that a commanding general "was directly responsible for the death of two Soldiers" and hat is fine... Though if it as you claim "NO action taken against Him! " Id bet the facts those with actually knowledge of the investigation felt otherwise.
So for entertainment purposes, if your willing to risk personal legal issues of making such a claim with the unit, date and names attached to your claim ..Feel free to do so, I would love to research it. BUT be advised, the person you name will be contacted as part of that research and your public statements made known.
Suggest you research the terms "Defamation of character" and "libel" before posting
The CG of the Post in Germany was directly responsible for the death of two Soldiers and there was Absolutely NO action taken against Him! I was there! I assisted in processing these Soldier’s Paperwork! How do You account fir THAT ?"
The lack of perspective a very junior enlisted person would have and complete lack of facts known to those that investigated and adjudicated any case such as you describe leave you inadequate to make such a bold claim. Never mind one with zero substance and fact.
Clearly you have a personal opinion that a commanding general "was directly responsible for the death of two Soldiers" and hat is fine... Though if it as you claim "NO action taken against Him! " Id bet the facts those with actually knowledge of the investigation felt otherwise.
So for entertainment purposes, if your willing to risk personal legal issues of making such a claim with the unit, date and names attached to your claim ..Feel free to do so, I would love to research it. BUT be advised, the person you name will be contacted as part of that research and your public statements made known.
Suggest you research the terms "Defamation of character" and "libel" before posting
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SPC Nancy Greene
Completely understand. The situation was the monthly Division three mile run. The parimutuel if post was only one mile. So, CG , assembled entire post in Division Formation and ran out front gate and down two lane highway and back around to complete three mile run. In Northern Germany in winter months the sun doesn’t rise until around 1000. The Post was located on HWY B6. In book of records as one of most dangerous HWY. I was assembled in parking lot and ( due to P3 Profile did not run, usually swam except in these ‘run’ days.) Those if us left behind reported to Duty section after Division left. When they were returning we all heard sirens and commotion. SM’s transported to 2nd Field Hospital in Bremerhaven. 30k up the road. I was informed of CG’s ‘hard core’ behaviors about a week after arrival in Post. Never really thought much about it because I didn’t have to run. Two Soldiers were hit by car on two separate occasions. Was considered ‘accidental death’ and no one ever really questioned. Also, Infantry BN’s were Mechanized while I was on same Post. Bradley’s were delivered ‘down south’. No one was trained on Bradley’s. 2/41 & 4/41 sent Senior NCO’s to Ft Hood for ‘training’. BN’s were bussed south. NCO’s returned to South Germany. The BN’s were briefed & ‘drove’ Bradley’s through Graff & Horns enroute to Garlstedt. Bradley’s’swim’ . MUST ‘seal’ prior to front tires touching water. Young , inexperienced crew, drowned. Don’t remember names and don’t really care to dwell. Just stating fact things DO happen and ‘accidents’ occur. I didn’t know these young soldiers. Just informed of ‘accidents’ because I was Support BN and MILOO processed records and paperwork. It was a very ‘strange’ Post in 1986. Berlin Wall still Up $ we were ‘First to Go’. Alerts were extremely ‘Stressful’. Actually packed up entire Post into Deuce & half’s and loaded records, and all MGT equipment into them and entire Division headed out of front gate. Had to place DESTROY ‘tags’ on everything left behind. Luckily nothing really happened, just ‘Readiness’ Drill. ‘Cold War’ was extremely ‘weird’ . Actually took MILPO to field once. Heavy rain and wind knocked down two GP Mediums. Thousands of $ in equipment destroyed along with boxes of 201 files. Never took Personnel records or equipment to field again. Strong ‘Rear Detachment’ established. 2nd Armored DIV (FWD) was ‘Hell on Wheels’! No one ever really discussed these events outside of the Division. SGM Erik Marquez
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SPC Nancy Greene
I am certain you are correct Sir. The entire time on this Post was somewhat ‘surreal’ . A female soldier stationed on a Combat Post in Germany in 1986-87 was definitely’strange’. I focused on my job and making sure Promotions were processed correctly and in ‘ the system’ prior to midnight the last day of month. MAJ Ken Landgren
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Josh,
I've witnessed similar situations albeit not at the same degree of severity. An acquaintance of mine, a CPT, was given a GOMOR for domestic violence and the HRC board convened to determine whether retain recommended retention. I know this officer to be of very poor quality.
Other than that, the treatment of officers seems to be akin of the way the Catholic Church has been alleged to deal with abusive priests - quietly sweep under the rug and relocate. I have also seen cases where officers have been dealt with, but I believe it's more often a result of animosity between the officer and his accuser. From my observations, the biggest factor in the disciplining of officers is whether or not they have a good buddy-buddy relationship with their superiors. Sycophantic violators are given much more deference than those that are not as ostentatious.
I've witnessed similar situations albeit not at the same degree of severity. An acquaintance of mine, a CPT, was given a GOMOR for domestic violence and the HRC board convened to determine whether retain recommended retention. I know this officer to be of very poor quality.
Other than that, the treatment of officers seems to be akin of the way the Catholic Church has been alleged to deal with abusive priests - quietly sweep under the rug and relocate. I have also seen cases where officers have been dealt with, but I believe it's more often a result of animosity between the officer and his accuser. From my observations, the biggest factor in the disciplining of officers is whether or not they have a good buddy-buddy relationship with their superiors. Sycophantic violators are given much more deference than those that are not as ostentatious.
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SPC Nancy Greene
What I experienced had Absolutely Nothing to do with DV!
This CG was Insane!
He placed Soldier at Risk once a month! His Division Run (fortunately I did not have to participate in due to P3 Profile from Basic) placed ALL Personnel in ‘Harms Way’!
How does any Soldier even begin to attempt ‘file charges GE’s’ against a General?!
This CG was Insane!
He placed Soldier at Risk once a month! His Division Run (fortunately I did not have to participate in due to P3 Profile from Basic) placed ALL Personnel in ‘Harms Way’!
How does any Soldier even begin to attempt ‘file charges GE’s’ against a General?!
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Reuters
The past three years seem to have been the hardest on army officers, as they have seen a steep, three-fold increase in departures due to misconduct and internal crimes, according to the documents. A total of 119 Army officers were forced to leave due to misconduct in 2010, which closely matched the average since 2000, but the figure more than tripled in 2013 to 387. For enlisted soldiers, the number jumped from 5,600 in 2007 to upward of 11,000 in 2013.
The past three years seem to have been the hardest on army officers, as they have seen a steep, three-fold increase in departures due to misconduct and internal crimes, according to the documents. A total of 119 Army officers were forced to leave due to misconduct in 2010, which closely matched the average since 2000, but the figure more than tripled in 2013 to 387. For enlisted soldiers, the number jumped from 5,600 in 2007 to upward of 11,000 in 2013.
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It all depends on three things when it comes to infractions:
1. Does anyone know about it? If they do not know about it then the powers that be cannot do anything about it.
2. Is this their first offense? If not a serious infraction and first one then yes a shot across the bow may be justified.
3. Were they convicted? I have seen many times, of all ranks, where the Soldier was not convicted, charged dropped, or charges reduced. If not convicted of DUI but a lower charge then what do you do? If charges of domestic abuse dropped then what? Was it on post or off when charges filed?
It really comes boils down to every case is different as are the Commanders making the decisions. I graduated OBC with a guy who got a DUI while at school. I do not know what happened to him at his first unit, but I was always told DUIs are career killers. I have yet to see it, but then again luckily I have only seen two Soldiers get DUIs in my career so far.
1. Does anyone know about it? If they do not know about it then the powers that be cannot do anything about it.
2. Is this their first offense? If not a serious infraction and first one then yes a shot across the bow may be justified.
3. Were they convicted? I have seen many times, of all ranks, where the Soldier was not convicted, charged dropped, or charges reduced. If not convicted of DUI but a lower charge then what do you do? If charges of domestic abuse dropped then what? Was it on post or off when charges filed?
It really comes boils down to every case is different as are the Commanders making the decisions. I graduated OBC with a guy who got a DUI while at school. I do not know what happened to him at his first unit, but I was always told DUIs are career killers. I have yet to see it, but then again luckily I have only seen two Soldiers get DUIs in my career so far.
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LTC (Join to see)
Well I certainly hopes that this means I am looking great for making MAJ then.....
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SPC Nancy Greene
The ENTIRE POST Knew first-hand of the CG’s ‘Insanity’!
Who do You inform or complain to when it’s the CG of the Post?!
Who do You inform or complain to when it’s the CG of the Post?!
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Sir, I really do not think that Officers get a pass for serious infractions. I have seen commanders get relieved for DUI or even public intoxication. I have seen non-command individuals get career ending GOMARs (they were clearing a couple months afterwards). Often times, administrative actions taken against officers are not made public like Junior Enlisted. This maintains the Officer Corps image that so many of our young Soldiers revere.
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SPC Nancy Greene
The CG of Garlstedt was actually KNOWN for this ‘Dangerous’ Monthly Direct Order!
He Was NEVER held Accountable!
I think He was Actually Promoted while I was leaving Germany!
He Was NEVER held Accountable!
I think He was Actually Promoted while I was leaving Germany!
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It could be an issue in particular command. It's been my experience that stupidly and incompetence
in a poor leader was dealt with quickly. Especially in the Combat Arms branches. In my case, the Infantry. I have had to relieve 3 officers over the years as they were incapable of leading troops without getting people killed. They were fit for pushing pencils but not pushing troops in the field.
in a poor leader was dealt with quickly. Especially in the Combat Arms branches. In my case, the Infantry. I have had to relieve 3 officers over the years as they were incapable of leading troops without getting people killed. They were fit for pushing pencils but not pushing troops in the field.
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Excellent Question COT Joshua COOPER!
My command (?) in Germany was the worst group of ‘rag-bag’ , ‘soup sandwich’ Soldiers I ever encountered!
When stationed at Ft McClellan, I was held to extremely high standards! That was a TRADOC Post!
Germany (Garlstedt) was 498th Support Battalion for 2nd Armored Division (FWD). I was appalled by the appearance, attitude, & utter lack of knowledge & leadership skills is n that Battalion!
I was ‘hasseled’ because I was knowledgeable regarding Personnel Management & adherence to AR 610 pertaining to PROPER wearing of BDU’S and Class A&B uniform!
What could a SP4(P) possibly do when her OIC (CPT) looked like a ‘soup sandwich’?
I worked fir the ‘TROOPS’ for 16 months and then I Requested a Medical Discharge!
So, when you speak of lack of consequences for Officers, even Senior Enlisted; I witnessed this first-hand in My Unit!
My command (?) in Germany was the worst group of ‘rag-bag’ , ‘soup sandwich’ Soldiers I ever encountered!
When stationed at Ft McClellan, I was held to extremely high standards! That was a TRADOC Post!
Germany (Garlstedt) was 498th Support Battalion for 2nd Armored Division (FWD). I was appalled by the appearance, attitude, & utter lack of knowledge & leadership skills is n that Battalion!
I was ‘hasseled’ because I was knowledgeable regarding Personnel Management & adherence to AR 610 pertaining to PROPER wearing of BDU’S and Class A&B uniform!
What could a SP4(P) possibly do when her OIC (CPT) looked like a ‘soup sandwich’?
I worked fir the ‘TROOPS’ for 16 months and then I Requested a Medical Discharge!
So, when you speak of lack of consequences for Officers, even Senior Enlisted; I witnessed this first-hand in My Unit!
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Must be different from when I was still Active or Active Reserve. I have personally had three commanders relieved for cause, one on leadership, one was toxic and managed to piss everyone in the company off and one for conduct unbecoming.
The last two the action was the end of their careers, the first they moved to staff. I left the Brigade shortly after and lost track of him at that point. He was one of the smartest people I ever met, but he couldn't have led a Infantry Squad into a Strip Club. I think he had read too much Sun Tzu and should have been using FM 7-8.
The last two the action was the end of their careers, the first they moved to staff. I left the Brigade shortly after and lost track of him at that point. He was one of the smartest people I ever met, but he couldn't have led a Infantry Squad into a Strip Club. I think he had read too much Sun Tzu and should have been using FM 7-8.
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I guess times have changed. When I was in the army 63-66 an officer had 3 chances to get promoted. If they were passed over they had to resign. We also had more Officers that came from the enlisted ranks then. When Vietnam started their was a shortage of experienced personel including officers. Due to my time in the Marine Corp as a Cpl. and going the leadership academy in the army as a SP/5 I was offered a 2nd/LT commission in Vietnam. Our Ammo Dump had just been blown up by the VC. I turned the offer down because I would have had to spend another year in Vietnam . I had only been married 8 months. In the Marine Corp a Cpl was equal to a Sgt. in the Army. Semper Fi.
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