Posted on May 16, 2022
Why does the US Army persist with the rank of SP4?
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This social experiment on soldiers was started in the late 1960s, and it mostly died away in the late 1980s, with the exception of SP4. Is a team leader SP4 any less of a leader than a corporal?
Team Leader
Squad Leader
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Posted 3 y ago
Responses: 163
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I agree with the question of "Why aren't there still SP5s-SP9s?" I was quite proud (in my "Green days") to sew on that SP4 and eventually SP5 patch, and was incredulous when the Army did away with every Specialist rank from SP5-up! I took great pride in what I did in my Battalion S2/S3, and had no overwhelming need or desire to "lead" or "command"!
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There is no Spec/4 anymore, its just a SPC, and there is def a difference in a SPC and a Corporal.
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SPC Vonnie Jones
Depends on the unit and the responsibilities givenvto each at least from 80-89. When I worked in the hospital we did the same job, when I was in the field hhb div 3 I'd I was a squad leader in the field. I guess units use what they had. SP4 do go to PLDC. When shit hits the fan, do you really care what rank a person is rocking on their collar? putting a stripe on someone never gave them knowhow and courage.
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CPL Scott Gregg
So you agree there is a difference? Same job or not. A Corporal is a NCO, usually has more responsibility. PLDC means nothing for rank except helping you get promoted.
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I think I might have a suitable answer, except this time.
My CO in Iraq was a former Marine O3 who was the XO of a FA unit. The Marines don't use SPC, they use CPL. The entire year I spent under him, he kept referring to us as "leaders that aren't pinned yet". My MOS, I had enough points to be promoted, but the spot hadn't opened up yet. Nowhere to move up to.
Can't give a leadership spot to someone who doesn't have a place to go
My CO in Iraq was a former Marine O3 who was the XO of a FA unit. The Marines don't use SPC, they use CPL. The entire year I spent under him, he kept referring to us as "leaders that aren't pinned yet". My MOS, I had enough points to be promoted, but the spot hadn't opened up yet. Nowhere to move up to.
Can't give a leadership spot to someone who doesn't have a place to go
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Where have all the worker gone? The army has become so stripe happy! Used to be stripes lead, sp- 4, 5, 6 did the work. Must be a new ego boost. As a Sp-5, I was the senior radar operator on both our ground surveillance radar Tps-25 and Q-4 artillery radar. I had a warrant in charge, all he did was repair work. I made SSgt E-6 as a ground surveillance radar section leader in charge of 4 radar sections. You followed the most stripes. If everyone has stripes who leads? To be politically correct, to many foreman and not enough workers. Army is starting to look like the Marine Corp. Glad you got rid of the black beret. Old school 69-75
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SSG Ted Strachan
Total agreement on that hideous Black beret. I hated it. Soft cap for camos, garrison cap all the way for dress.
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I believe that if you are in some technical MOS then the SP04 rank and above is appropriate. If you are in a combat arms MOS then I believe the rank of corporal and above is appropriate. I feel that corporal ranks get more respect when you serve as a team leader in a infantry unit. SP4 rank meant you did not have the qualities to be a team leader. Question is what is a leader? A soldier in garrison might not be considered a great leader but then out in the field he shows that that person is a good leader.
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SFC Jerald Bottcher
I happen to agree. There are a lot of folks in technical fields that do not require them to be leaders. Transportation coordinators, lab techs, welders, the list is very long. For these folks you want to use the higher Specialist ranks to recognize their expertise. Then you have the combat arms types. Infantry, Field Artillery, Armor and so on. For those If they are short on Sgt's they need to laterally promote to Cpl. They do not need the higher specialist ranks
There are some MOS's that are Combat Support, but are formed like the infantry. Here I am talking about jobs like the Military Police when performing combat support. They need their E-5s to be Sgts. However if they are working in Law Enforcement such as a Military Police Investigator, they should be at the higher specialist ranks.
In Short. In the MOS's where the E-5 and above are "pushing troops" they need to be NCO's. In MOS's where the focus is on performing technical tasks and maybe being a team lead. then the Spec 5-7 would be the right way to go.
I will get down from my soapbox now!
There are some MOS's that are Combat Support, but are formed like the infantry. Here I am talking about jobs like the Military Police when performing combat support. They need their E-5s to be Sgts. However if they are working in Law Enforcement such as a Military Police Investigator, they should be at the higher specialist ranks.
In Short. In the MOS's where the E-5 and above are "pushing troops" they need to be NCO's. In MOS's where the focus is on performing technical tasks and maybe being a team lead. then the Spec 5-7 would be the right way to go.
I will get down from my soapbox now!
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I mean to be real the army could probably do better at retaining experienced soldiers by adding back the specialist ranks. Not everyone has the ability or desire to lead, it doesn’t mean soldiers like that are useless though. Being able to keep them & doing their job at a higher pay grade but still a specialist could be better a better option than either promoting a solider that has no desire or the ability to lead or simply “letting” them go once the retention cap is met.
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SPC Martin Meyer
Problem with specialist ranks especially when I was in did not garner the respect that the NCO ranks did. Got a lot of push back when trying to lead as a specialist.
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My active duty 1968-1971 was when the specialist ranks were active. The upper specialist ranks
SP5 through SP9 were active to assist the army in keeping trained soldiers in their specialty MOS
fields using the pay grade to keep them on active duty. There were specialty fields while I was
active but in the army today there are many more than when I was active. There were outstanding
specialist in their MOS field that would not have made or even wanted to be a good NCO "troop pusher". The 619th Ordnance Company at the NATO nuclear weapon site in the former West Germany
had SP4,SP5 and SP6 ranks. I only saw one SP7 and he was part of a inspection team at our NATO site. I never saw the SP8 or SP9 ranks which were discontinued in 1968 when I enlisted.
We had the SP4 E-4 rank in our 558th MP Company but no Corporal E-4s.
SP5 through SP9 were active to assist the army in keeping trained soldiers in their specialty MOS
fields using the pay grade to keep them on active duty. There were specialty fields while I was
active but in the army today there are many more than when I was active. There were outstanding
specialist in their MOS field that would not have made or even wanted to be a good NCO "troop pusher". The 619th Ordnance Company at the NATO nuclear weapon site in the former West Germany
had SP4,SP5 and SP6 ranks. I only saw one SP7 and he was part of a inspection team at our NATO site. I never saw the SP8 or SP9 ranks which were discontinued in 1968 when I enlisted.
We had the SP4 E-4 rank in our 558th MP Company but no Corporal E-4s.
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What's the point of a Warrant Officer of there are SPC 5-9.
A better question. Why have the Specialist tank at all and not promote to CPL to start training for leadership earlier?
The Navy has 3 Junior Enlisted, 3 "NCO", and 3 Senior "NCO" ranks. Marines the same. Why do we have SPC at all?
*I put NCO in quotes because the Navy calls them Lead Petty Officer or Senior Lead Petty Officer. (2 joint assignments)
A better question. Why have the Specialist tank at all and not promote to CPL to start training for leadership earlier?
The Navy has 3 Junior Enlisted, 3 "NCO", and 3 Senior "NCO" ranks. Marines the same. Why do we have SPC at all?
*I put NCO in quotes because the Navy calls them Lead Petty Officer or Senior Lead Petty Officer. (2 joint assignments)
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SSG Ted Strachan
I would have to answer that by saying we (Army) are not the Navy. Not being trite, just recognizing the very significant differences between the Army and the Navy.
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CPL (Join to see)
If you are good enough at the work, the Warrant Officer will let the trusted SPC do it. They are there for liability issues and to keep the paper pushing officers off the backs of the trained SPC. I have seen whole sections of highly trained SPC merge with other sections. (The weapon repair, nvg repair and comsec repair) taken over by the mechanic section. This left huge gaps in readiness. That is why we need WO. To stop those things from happening.
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The following article is a very interesting one that falls into this category/question...
https://www.army.mil/article/247183/soldiers_to_pin_on_corporal_after_blc
~Brian Kerr
https://www.army.mil/article/247183/soldiers_to_pin_on_corporal_after_blc
~Brian Kerr
Soldiers to pin on corporal after BLC
WASHINGTON — Soldiers soon will shoulder the responsibilities of noncommissioned officers earlier in their careers, following a new Army directive that...
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SSG Brian Kerr
I thought so too. I was laterally promoted to Corporal years ago myself and this article just makes sense as I never felt that the Corporal rank was utilized enough in the spirit of what it was there for.
~Brian Kerr
~Brian Kerr
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SPC Vonnie Jones
wow, my unit in GE treated me as a junior NCO, I had the same duties that would have been perfect , go Army
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The average enlistment in the Army is 3yrs. We have the Sp/4 rank because most people don,t want to be a leader. Personel mostly join to get money for college. If a person reenlists he will make Sgt. a Leader. i have never seen many Cpls in the Army. I enlisted in the Army after spending 4yrs in the Marine Corp. I made Sp/5 and never worked in my MOS. 2311. (Ammo Tech) I was made company Armorer then Supply clerk then Acting Supply Sgt. It was always next man up. In Vietnam I was offered 2n LT. if I stayed another year. I decided to go home because I had only been married 8 months. I didn't like SP/5 because I was considered an NCO when they needed one or a peon when they needed one.
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