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Two recent, interesting articles. One from The Atlantic, one from Salon (and I'll acknowledge the bias of Salon from the get go, so no one needs to spend time attacking the source; The Atlantic, though, is, as they say, "of no party or clique."
Do you agree the US win-lose record since 1945 is 1-4? Do you agree that the US loses wars precisely because it is so powerful? Why haven't Eisenhower's warnings about the military-industrial complex led to any sort of meaningful controls on the DoD budget?
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/06/america-win-loss-iraq-afghanistan/394559/
http://www.salon.com/2015/05/16/the_dwight_eisenhower_lesson_america_forgot_partner/
Do you agree the US win-lose record since 1945 is 1-4? Do you agree that the US loses wars precisely because it is so powerful? Why haven't Eisenhower's warnings about the military-industrial complex led to any sort of meaningful controls on the DoD budget?
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/06/america-win-loss-iraq-afghanistan/394559/
http://www.salon.com/2015/05/16/the_dwight_eisenhower_lesson_america_forgot_partner/
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 189
I am not sure if its about loosing as it is about someone in charge who says, "Okay we're done, time to go home".
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TSgt Gwen Walcott
I don't think that waiting until we are tired and then declaring, "I'm taking my ball and going home." is the proper tack.
We should declare the end point beforehand:
--- Decide and declare what is wrong
--- Decide and declare what we want accomplished
--- Charge the Flag with accomplishing the mission with minimum time, cost, and attrition
--- Charge the Flag with reporting Mission Accomplished
== then leave or provide a guarding residual
We should declare the end point beforehand:
--- Decide and declare what is wrong
--- Decide and declare what we want accomplished
--- Charge the Flag with accomplishing the mission with minimum time, cost, and attrition
--- Charge the Flag with reporting Mission Accomplished
== then leave or provide a guarding residual
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As long as we allow our selves to be ruled by the UN, fear what liberals will say, or worry about political polls, or our elected politicians fear happens at Dover, then we are doomed. As long as the CIA continues to monkey frack the hell out of every third world dictator's harem of a goat screw, we will continue to get involved in no win situations. I am still trying to figure out how we liberated the Kuwaiti's, we gave them back the same guy they had before the Iraqi's took it? Is that liberation? Is that freedom, or just a return to the status quo? We cannot be a shinning example of Democracy, when we refuse to help those who seek a different form of Democracy that we don't like. I am no fan of what was going on Egypt, but they had a publically elected Prime Minister, but do you think a coup would of taken place without our support?
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MAJ (Join to see)
So, the future is bleak, and the US should really consider a non-interventionist policy in the future?
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COL Ted Mc
MAJ (Join to see) - Major; I think that taking a "non-interventionist" stance would be going a bit too far as that would be conceding the game.
However, how about doing a minor rule change and having the US government tie the amount of assistance it will give to any country to the degree of freedom, democracy, and human rights its citizens enjoy and the amount of honesty its government displays?
In other words "We will help you along the path to a modern and progressive society PROVIDED that you show that that is what you are trying to achieve. BUT if you want to run a corrupt, venal, murderous, dictatorship you aren't going to get a dime - oh yes, and we aren't going to trade with you either.".
The PR advantages of such a policy (if publicly announced and actually followed) would do one hell of a lot to restore the reputation of the United States of America amongst that portion of the world's population which can still be influenced to move into the 20th Century (and beyond).
However, how about doing a minor rule change and having the US government tie the amount of assistance it will give to any country to the degree of freedom, democracy, and human rights its citizens enjoy and the amount of honesty its government displays?
In other words "We will help you along the path to a modern and progressive society PROVIDED that you show that that is what you are trying to achieve. BUT if you want to run a corrupt, venal, murderous, dictatorship you aren't going to get a dime - oh yes, and we aren't going to trade with you either.".
The PR advantages of such a policy (if publicly announced and actually followed) would do one hell of a lot to restore the reputation of the United States of America amongst that portion of the world's population which can still be influenced to move into the 20th Century (and beyond).
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CW3 Kevin Storm
From a moral perspective, we swear to support and defend the Constitution first and foremost over everything else. Should that not be our moral compass, how as a military sworn to support and defend the very instrument that gives Liberty and Freedoms, can we support those would not grant that to their own people. I do find that to be an odd juxtaposition, defend freedom, at the same time prop up a some one who doesn't support our way of life. Intervention can a lot of different meanings, can we teach people to farm better, build better roads, build a better infrastructure without supplying them F-16's or billions of dollars in defense aid. I am of the opinion that much of the middle east's problems could be fixed far easier if we could fix the unemployment so prevalent in the region. Bombing the hell out of people in turn only raises another generation of wanna be jihadists. Does that mean the US employing them, no. That doesn't work here, why would it work there? I agree with the Col Ted Mc comments.
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Well from my point of view, What happened to Germany and Japan when the US went in? We won, but it's what took place afterwards that hurt the most. The US had to rebuilt these country's again.
If we had say won Vietnam we would had to restore the entire country there as well.
I'm not 100% certain but this is somewhere in the Geneva convention as well. Were if there is a war between 2 countries the winning country has to restore the losing country.
Image the US restoring Nam or by that fact any other country. As many said, we pulled out so we don't have to pay anyone a dime.
If we had say won Vietnam we would had to restore the entire country there as well.
I'm not 100% certain but this is somewhere in the Geneva convention as well. Were if there is a war between 2 countries the winning country has to restore the losing country.
Image the US restoring Nam or by that fact any other country. As many said, we pulled out so we don't have to pay anyone a dime.
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1SG Michael Blount
We're good at winning battles in low intensity conflicts. We win conventional wars, but are not doctrinally prepared for the urban/low intensity/jihad fight. Everyone talks about the "strategic corporal" in such situations. I've yet to see ANYONE carry it out.
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Fast answer, too much worry about collateral damage. We will never win another war with our hands tied behind our backs. I am not for killing civilians but I am not for overlooking them so they can kill us, WW11 did not worry about collateral damage. Bombs dropped to kill the enemy. We would never had won WW11 if our hands were tied like they are today.
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PO1 William "Chip" Nagel
Unfortunately in the "Information Age" you can't hide what you do to Civilians like they once did and to Win on the World Stage we can't come across as Thugs, Cold Hearted Murderers.
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Sgt Frank Rinchich
William I am not saying we should project ourselves as cold hearted murderers, what I am saying is we are to concerned about collateral damage, for instance , there is a building with known enemy , across the street there is a mosque, we will not bomb that building holding the enemy for fear of damaging the mosque. we can't fire at the enemy till they fire first. it's crazy. And to confirm the topic, we can't win a war because as you put it the information age. It's ok for the enemy to commit atrocities against us , but we miss a building and hit a civilian we are monsters. we are to politically correct. and that don't win wars.
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The US is the ultimate military power. No one can stand against us, man for man, weapon for weapon. The problem is that our leadership lacks resolve. Other than that we really could kick everyone ass. I know it sounds simplistic but it happens to be true.
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MAJ (Join to see)
In a conventional war, sure. In reality, Iraq and Afghanistan sort of suggest otherwise.
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Freedom can not be given. It must be taken with the edge of a sword by those wanting it. If the people can not rise up and spill their own blood for it then they have nothing invested. They are going to roll over to the next person to rise up in power.
Americas world police policy will not work. All it does is take the guy out who is in power, creates a vacuum, and allows others to take their place.
Americas world police policy will not work. All it does is take the guy out who is in power, creates a vacuum, and allows others to take their place.
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Conventional war like WWI, WWII, Vietnam and Korea it's easy to declare victory or defeat cause one side surrenders and signs a document stating that fact. So Desert Storm was a victory cause we achieved our goal, liberation of Kuwait. The Iraq invasion was a victory with the removal of Saddam Hussein. Afghanistan is tougher cause the Taliban is still a force to reckon with. GWOT is a political campaign since we'll never totally eradicate terrorism in the world. Our policies in the Middle East have failed but militarily we achieved our primary goals.
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CPT Pedro Meza
Best to say that we are in a learning curve, time will tell what we have learned. Have you ever seen the movie What Have We Learned Charlie Brown?
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MAJ (Join to see)
Not sure I agree with your periodization of Iraq; limited to 2003, sure, we toppled Saddam. Placed in the context of 1991-2015, Iraq doesn't look so rosy (and the concept that we toppled Saddam is suspect, as so many senior Baath party leaders are now ISIS leaders).
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MAJ James Woods
And I don't agree with your generalization of war. WWII was a victory because the NAZIs and their allies were defeated. If the rebuilding of Germany and Japan was to be a factor then i wouldn't call it much of a success since it led to a divided Germany and the rise of Communism that led to more wars. The Iraq regime was defeated. That war effort was won. The new campaign as result of our occupation is a separate story. You can't combine the two; otherwise we lost a lot more wars with our failed rebuilding efforts and rise of terror groups and dictators.
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Lack of strategy tied to focused specific political goals. We can win at the tactical level and maybe even operational. But without something tangible to tie these victories to, it will appear as a loss or losses.
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SCPO (Join to see)
Just postulating here, but too broad based and not focused on true strategic goals, be them hard or soft. I also think, and am somewhat reluctant to state, but here goes. Political correctness has crippled us from being willing to call out our enemies.
On the other hand, our most significant enemy of the last 30 years has become more ambiguous thus leaving us formulating strategies that try to cover everything. Just my two cents.
On the other hand, our most significant enemy of the last 30 years has become more ambiguous thus leaving us formulating strategies that try to cover everything. Just my two cents.
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Politics, money and the stomach to actually wage wars. If the politicians let the military actually conduct a war without tying our dicks to our hands, we could win. That being said, I do not believe the American public has the stomach for what goes on in actual war. Then there is the question of if we actually want to win it or just stay 20 years, have no exit plan, and make money. 10 years into Afghanistan you could tell that was going to be another Vietnam. We all saw it coming, but the general populace, and the politicians acted surprised.
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Even though this was posted over six years ago it deservers a response. We have never lost a war, to include Vietnam. The objective in every conflict is controlled by the politician not the war fighter. In every conflict the political goals have been reached. Rarely are the goals of the government officials in line with actually winning a conflict. They seek only a better position to negotiate from. We as military personnel are often sacrificed to that end. If it were not true the powers that be would continue to supply resources until the bitter end. U.S. service men and Women have and continue to serve honorably and selflessly. We need to concern ourselves with the elected officials of which many are not nearly as honorable, even if addressed as such.
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