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Every day I log onto RallyPoint to see Officers, NCOs, and
Soldiers complaining about living up to the standard. We have all seen the posts about how important a 300 is then many long time NCOs chime in about how the Army standard is 180 and if that is the standard than it is good enough. Then we have hundreds of posts about how the weight control program sucks and I weigh too much and it’s not fair. Leaders and Soldiers thinking that just
because you know a little something about your job you shouldn’t have to meet that standard. There are a few posts discussing how a 110 GT score is too high and we should lower it because people are not good at tests. Then I have seen posts of people thinking that striving for distinguished honor grad and commandants list are not all that important.
I know some people are going to say things about PT doesn’t mean anything if you know your job, or if your PT is good body fat standard shouldn’t matter, or any of the other hundred reasons people have for under achievement and condoning it in their Soldiers.
My basic question is since when did just passing, barely meeting the standard or wanting the standards to drop to you instead of striving to be better become the way we do business. Is it just me? Am I the only one who sees this?
BLUF: Either you are trying to excel and not just meet the standard but far exceed it. Or…. You are just coasting by doing the bare minimum and are a detriment to our force.
I know some people are going to say things about PT doesn’t mean anything if you know your job, or if your PT is good body fat standard shouldn’t matter, or any of the other hundred reasons people have for under achievement and condoning it in their Soldiers.
My basic question is since when did just passing, barely meeting the standard or wanting the standards to drop to you instead of striving to be better become the way we do business. Is it just me? Am I the only one who sees this?
BLUF: Either you are trying to excel and not just meet the standard but far exceed it. Or…. You are just coasting by doing the bare minimum and are a detriment to our force.
Standards
APFT
NCOES
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 49
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I disagree. There are poeple in the force that are injured. We gave our all, we busted ours asses to be that person above the standard. I am so sick of poeple saying, we need to strive more, do more pt, your not motavated. Well let me say this. I am EXTREMELY movitavted, I bust my ass every PT test. I am a little over weight. I don't Gripe about the standard. But when you have two bad kness and a permenant profile that help to keep me in, then so be it. I have 14yrs of experience, 2 mos's, and have been in the national guard 11 of those 14yrs. Our training is the same as yours, I come in and see the young kids that don't know crap! They are looking up to some people that shouldn't be in the military at all. All they do is bitch about being there, that we dont train enough, then when we do. Then it is why are we out here. I am proud that I am one that strives to get the new guys away from those people and train them in the job that they are in, keeping up the PMI and BMI. I cant do what they can and that is be a PT stud. But helping them to be motivated enough to do THERE best!
Should we lower the standard NO! Meet the standard or exceed the standard.That is IT! No exceptions. At this point I am working my ass of to get my weight down as I CANNOT RUN. I walk, go to the gym, cut back on eating the wrong things and have basically became a freaking Rabbit! So excuse me if I dont agree. This isn't meant as an attack, just tired of the people who think everyone HAS TO HAVE A 300 PT test to be someone that matters or only people that should be in the Military. Some of us are also just corn feed counrty boys who had to work as kids on farms and might be just stocky. could we stand to lose a little weight, yes, but that doesn't mean we are the CRAP bags of the Military! Thant why I down voted. Sorry SSG nothing personel at all.
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1SG (Join to see), I am sure you will get plenty of people on here that say the standard is the standard and that's the only measurement. Funny...then why does the scale go to 300? If passing WLC is good enough...why a commandant's list? An honor grad? If passing the GT test is good enough...why have points after that? It's to separate the best and those who are above average. The kinds of people we want leading the military. It's not just about PT and GT tests either. The change in the NCOER is going to put a nail in a few people and you'll really hear some complaining then. If your standard is 180 and you're happy to achieve it, and that's the general opinion you have about a few things, you'll probably find yourself in the middle of the pack. That means you will be "at risk" for promotion, because you weren't selected as one of the best. Is a "Center of Mass" ok? Yeah. It's the standard. When it comes to promoting people however...we start at the top...not in the center.
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1SG (Join to see)
Sir,
Having an issue with my so called "smart" phone. You hit the nail on the head for what I was getting at. You can pass school with a D, but would that be good enough for you or your children? Probably not. It is fine to have a base standard. But to assume that the minimum standard is good enough should not be acceptable. Thank you for the response sir.
Having an issue with my so called "smart" phone. You hit the nail on the head for what I was getting at. You can pass school with a D, but would that be good enough for you or your children? Probably not. It is fine to have a base standard. But to assume that the minimum standard is good enough should not be acceptable. Thank you for the response sir.
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We can attempt to influence the standard, but we cannot directly change it. That is unless you are one of the few that sit in that position and have the direct influence..totally different discussion.
A leader must hold their Soldiers to the standard. Meaning, the must AT LEAST meet that standard. I like to take the "Keep raising the bar" approach. Always challenge your Soldiers to exceed the Army standard..Why? When they go to school and given that APFT and the grader had a bad morning, you may need those extra push-ups and sit ups.
Same said about GT scores. Below 110? Challenge your Soldiers to improve that. Counsel them to that effect. Same can be said on any standard in the army..set the bar. If you motivate your Soldiers and they are successful at exceeding a goal that you set, you will have some great quantifiable bullet statements. This all ties into self improvement. PT, GT score pick an area. I always think about an old school Infantry analogy. When do you finish improving your fighting position? Never! You constantly work on improving it.
A leader must hold their Soldiers to the standard. Meaning, the must AT LEAST meet that standard. I like to take the "Keep raising the bar" approach. Always challenge your Soldiers to exceed the Army standard..Why? When they go to school and given that APFT and the grader had a bad morning, you may need those extra push-ups and sit ups.
Same said about GT scores. Below 110? Challenge your Soldiers to improve that. Counsel them to that effect. Same can be said on any standard in the army..set the bar. If you motivate your Soldiers and they are successful at exceeding a goal that you set, you will have some great quantifiable bullet statements. This all ties into self improvement. PT, GT score pick an area. I always think about an old school Infantry analogy. When do you finish improving your fighting position? Never! You constantly work on improving it.
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SFC (Join to see)
Excellent point CSM (Join to see). That's a lesson in life as well as the military. If you have gone through one day without learning or improving, that day was a waste. That applies to family and relationships, relationships with colleagues, and everything in between.
If we aren't challenging ourselves AND our subordinates to do better, we are failing them and ourselves equally. Our job is to prepare them for whatever the world may throw at them, not just the Army. That's what mentoring and leadership are really about.
If we aren't challenging ourselves AND our subordinates to do better, we are failing them and ourselves equally. Our job is to prepare them for whatever the world may throw at them, not just the Army. That's what mentoring and leadership are really about.
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If you were a tanker I am sure you would not accept the minimum score on your tank qualification. What is the minimum standard for diagnosing illnesses correctly? 60 % of the time?
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SSG (Join to see)
What MOS is APFT max score achiever? You cant be perfect at everything so meeting an arbitrary tun time standard abd excelling at crewing the tank is far more beneficial than shooting poorly but getting a 300... strive for excellence but dont get butthurt if the shortcomings are in non mission critical areas
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1SG (Join to see), I think that's a great question. I submit it's a trend in society: "Everybody's a winner," which drops the standard to the lowest common denominator. That's what I thought when I read your post.
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I think a lot of it ha to do with the war. Constant PT and staying fit has somewhat become a casualty of the war focus we have had for 13 years. We have gotten out of our normal routine of PT tests every 6 months. I hear too often Leaders that say they want to waive a PT test prior to or after a deployment.<div><br></div><div>I gave notice yesterday for a PT test Tue, Thu and Fri of next week and some Soldiers complained it wasn't enough time. Over time PT and HT/WT will come back to the top. We as Leaders just have to enforce it. Once the deployments slow and it becomes routine you will see the focus change.</div><div><br></div><div>Leaders need to tighten the screws on PT and HT/WT. If you pay close attention it is slowly starting to work it's way back into the Army mainstream.</div>
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SPC Dan Goforth
Top, I agree with you completely. I had the conflict of being right in the middle of outprocessing Presidio and taking a PT test, and my worst fear happened during that PT test, but I'm better off in the long run knowing now that I have an issue to address, and not finding out when I get to a new unit and have been there only a month. I also really need to shed some excess weight (I make tape, but barely). This really does have a lot of meaning, as I stated in my first reply to this discussion. If younger soldiers build up their PT now, they won't have some of the problems down the road they could.
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LTC Paul Labrador
1SG Quackenbush, I think part of the problem though is a lot of what I like to call "garrison-isms" that were meant to be means to prepare us for combat morphed into ends unto themselves. The PT test is not the end goal. Being fit for combat is the end goal. Who cares if they can or cannot pass a PT test if they are effective at doing their job in combat.....which is the REAL measure of effectiveness. The APFT was meant as an arbitrary yardstick to somehow measure effectiveness. But somewhere along the line it became the end goal.
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PT first: Everyone should be fit. For me, 180 isn't the standard, it's the least to qualify. And I believe everyone should be physically fit. Don't forget, our past engagements there was no front lines and everyone needed to be able to perform as an infantryman.
MOS: I remember SQT, and believe the army failed us as soldiers and the army as a whole when it was taken away. No more was proficiency placed on doing our jobs.
And I believe this has a direct effect on the above: Not everyone is a leader! I firmly believe the SPC ranks need to be returned. I've seen people wearing stripes who were a whiz at their MOS, but I wouldn't let them lead a duck to water.
MOS: I remember SQT, and believe the army failed us as soldiers and the army as a whole when it was taken away. No more was proficiency placed on doing our jobs.
And I believe this has a direct effect on the above: Not everyone is a leader! I firmly believe the SPC ranks need to be returned. I've seen people wearing stripes who were a whiz at their MOS, but I wouldn't let them lead a duck to water.
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SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS
SGM Mikel Dawson SGM I agree 100%. I also see benefit in having career progression for Soldiers in a technical field where they are not assigned to a leader billet. Likewise, when you see a "hard stripe" you know a leader is in the room.
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1SG (Join to see), I'm going to jump right past the APFT issue. That seems to be a hot-button topic and there seem to be strong feelings on both sides of the issue. I maxed the PT test for a while in the Army, but not for 30 years. I did always try my best, and I think that's enough for that.
On the overall topic of standards, though, I agree with you 100%. I do think that we, as a society, have slipped into a sense of "I'm okay, you're okay" and some of that has bled over into our military. That's to be expected, I guess, because everyone in the military comes from our society.
I see this in schools because my wife is a special education teacher. She tells me about little Johnny and little Suzie who can't read or do basic math in the 7th or 8th grade. And guess what? Johnny and Suzie are being promoted with their peers to 8th and 9th grade. I see that as a downward spiral. There's a good quote from Seinfeld (and probably elsewhere) that goes something like "You're all winners!" That's the mentality, and I think it's wrong.
I didn't believe that when I was in the Army, and my mind hasn't changed since I retired from the Army. To go back to the PT test (which I said I wouldn't do) ... If one Soldier maxes the APFT and his "battle" scores 180, then the Soldier who scored 300 should be recognized (if anyone is recognized). That is a no brainer, isn't it? The same holds true - for me at least - for aspects of the job, putting in extra hours, extra effort, etc. I think that's part of the core of our military - to strive to be all you can be. And by the way, that's why I think that particular Army slogan is the best slogan since the Army has been using slogans.
Vince Lombardi said, "All right Mister, let me tell you what winning means: you're willing to go longer, work harder, give more than anyone else." That is the essence of what motivates, or should motivate, every military member and veteran to do and be their absolute best. The new lingo is to "represent," and we all should be doing our best to "represent" our Service (present or past), our military, and our country.
Bottom line, 1SG (Join to see), is that we are NOT all winners. And striving to be the distinguished honor graduate, to make the commandant's list, to contribute your best to everything you do is commendable. It's what right looks like in this old soldier's book. It's something we ALL should be striving for.
Pardon me while I towel off ... I'm a little passionate about this topic. And Happy New Year to you!
On the overall topic of standards, though, I agree with you 100%. I do think that we, as a society, have slipped into a sense of "I'm okay, you're okay" and some of that has bled over into our military. That's to be expected, I guess, because everyone in the military comes from our society.
I see this in schools because my wife is a special education teacher. She tells me about little Johnny and little Suzie who can't read or do basic math in the 7th or 8th grade. And guess what? Johnny and Suzie are being promoted with their peers to 8th and 9th grade. I see that as a downward spiral. There's a good quote from Seinfeld (and probably elsewhere) that goes something like "You're all winners!" That's the mentality, and I think it's wrong.
I didn't believe that when I was in the Army, and my mind hasn't changed since I retired from the Army. To go back to the PT test (which I said I wouldn't do) ... If one Soldier maxes the APFT and his "battle" scores 180, then the Soldier who scored 300 should be recognized (if anyone is recognized). That is a no brainer, isn't it? The same holds true - for me at least - for aspects of the job, putting in extra hours, extra effort, etc. I think that's part of the core of our military - to strive to be all you can be. And by the way, that's why I think that particular Army slogan is the best slogan since the Army has been using slogans.
Vince Lombardi said, "All right Mister, let me tell you what winning means: you're willing to go longer, work harder, give more than anyone else." That is the essence of what motivates, or should motivate, every military member and veteran to do and be their absolute best. The new lingo is to "represent," and we all should be doing our best to "represent" our Service (present or past), our military, and our country.
Bottom line, 1SG (Join to see), is that we are NOT all winners. And striving to be the distinguished honor graduate, to make the commandant's list, to contribute your best to everything you do is commendable. It's what right looks like in this old soldier's book. It's something we ALL should be striving for.
Pardon me while I towel off ... I'm a little passionate about this topic. And Happy New Year to you!
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I tend to agree that some, not many, would fall into you argument. I was at a base when I overheard a AF MAJ complain that one of her Airmen couldn't get promoted due failing their fitness test. Well in that case he didn't deserve it. It is the cold hard truth. It is an expectation that we all have.
Even if your line of work doesn't require it you still need to be in shape. You PT score counts. We someone has a high score it shows me that they strive to maintain their physical fitness and put in their time. I know it is not needed for a desk clerk but that is not the point. A soldier that strides if excellence in all areas shows me the character of that person. If they only care about their job performance and lack in fitness it shows me their priorities. Being in shape is part of being a soldier.
Even if your line of work doesn't require it you still need to be in shape. You PT score counts. We someone has a high score it shows me that they strive to maintain their physical fitness and put in their time. I know it is not needed for a desk clerk but that is not the point. A soldier that strides if excellence in all areas shows me the character of that person. If they only care about their job performance and lack in fitness it shows me their priorities. Being in shape is part of being a soldier.
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