Posted on Jun 18, 2015
Why is an E5 Sergeant being treated like a junior enlisted?
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Ive noticed and been apart of the despair that treats Sergeants like junior enlisted. I understand that these are junior NCO's but they are NCO's in the end and have earned the rank. Vehicle searches (for E5 and below), packing layouts (E5 and below), having to buddy up to go to the px (or needing an E6 or higher to go with) etc....Im not oppose to any of this stuff but I just feel like when I was at that rank I earned the respect and confidence of my leadership and the army as a whole.
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Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 76
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Sergeant E5s are working supervisors. They are with their Soliders 100 percent of the time. Therefore, they work where the rubber meets the road and lead from the front. If a Staff Sergeant orders a layout, then Team Leaders lead the way in the care and presentation of their equipment and teaching the Soldiers what the standard is... If a Sergeant First Class orders the layout, then Squad Leaders layout equipment too. Your job as a Sergeant is to lead, train, teach junior enlisted Soldiers. You will be with them all the time. This doesn't mean you are a junior enlisted Soldier - you are entrusted with accomplishment of the mission - you are in charge!
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CSM (Join to see)
SGT Timothy Rocheleau - As a SSG/SFC/1SG/CSM, I've always supervised and had a presence... Was I painting BII as a SGM? No, but I certainly helped put up the tents... Leadership should always have a presence, but there are several tasks going on within a Squad, Platoon, Company, Batallion, etc., so unfortunately the PVT may not see their leader there. Also remember that not only are the leaders overseeing the larger operation taking place, but they are planning for the steps ahead... Unfortunately, that's not to say every leader is doing that, and I'm sure I've had my lazy days, but generally leaders are often there and it may just be overlooked. Main thing is to work as a team at whatever level you are at.
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SGT Timothy Rocheleau
CSM Wilkes,
I may not have stated what I was trying to state as succinctly as I could have. In no way was my comment typed with an intent to imply that any of these ranks should be doing anything more than their required duties. My only point was that as an E-5, although you are the "first NCO" this person should still be treated as an NCO who has achieved that "supervisory" role. The sergeant should be there, front and center, guiding his troops, teaching as needed and assisting. But as that first line supervisor one can not supervise his troops if he is himself being treated as a "junior enlisted" troop. As that "first NCO" you should be afforded the proper respect by both those subordinate to yourself but also from those above you. Senior enlisted can't expect the specialist and below to respect and follow an NCO when the seniors and Commisioned are treating the NCO as a "junior enlisted". This isn't to say that there are some Sergeants who need to be treated as such, but that involves and entirely different problem of "if your NCO needs to be treated like a junior troop why did you sign off on them going to the board to be promoted". It is assumed that if a soldier makes their 5 the leadership team has signed off on them and shown a level of respect from the start, so that respect should continue. If the leadership team feels that a Sergeant needs to continue to perform as a specialist or below then that shows fault with the leaderships decision making from the start. A sergeant shouldn't have been afforded the opportunity to become such if he/she is deemed to still need to be subjected to the tasks of their lower ranking soldiers. Respect is earned, if a soldier has achieved promotion to the NCO corp then I believe they have earned that respect and should be treated as such. The Sergeant shouldn't be subjected to tasks at the level of E-4 and below, they should be getting guidance from those senior to them on their new role and potential for further advancement.
In no way was I implying that any NCO should be shoulder to shoulder with those junior in relegated tasks. If the leadership team feels an NCO still needs to be at the level of a E-4 and below then that NCO should have never been sent to Leadership Ckirses or recommended for the board for advancement.
I may not have stated what I was trying to state as succinctly as I could have. In no way was my comment typed with an intent to imply that any of these ranks should be doing anything more than their required duties. My only point was that as an E-5, although you are the "first NCO" this person should still be treated as an NCO who has achieved that "supervisory" role. The sergeant should be there, front and center, guiding his troops, teaching as needed and assisting. But as that first line supervisor one can not supervise his troops if he is himself being treated as a "junior enlisted" troop. As that "first NCO" you should be afforded the proper respect by both those subordinate to yourself but also from those above you. Senior enlisted can't expect the specialist and below to respect and follow an NCO when the seniors and Commisioned are treating the NCO as a "junior enlisted". This isn't to say that there are some Sergeants who need to be treated as such, but that involves and entirely different problem of "if your NCO needs to be treated like a junior troop why did you sign off on them going to the board to be promoted". It is assumed that if a soldier makes their 5 the leadership team has signed off on them and shown a level of respect from the start, so that respect should continue. If the leadership team feels that a Sergeant needs to continue to perform as a specialist or below then that shows fault with the leaderships decision making from the start. A sergeant shouldn't have been afforded the opportunity to become such if he/she is deemed to still need to be subjected to the tasks of their lower ranking soldiers. Respect is earned, if a soldier has achieved promotion to the NCO corp then I believe they have earned that respect and should be treated as such. The Sergeant shouldn't be subjected to tasks at the level of E-4 and below, they should be getting guidance from those senior to them on their new role and potential for further advancement.
In no way was I implying that any NCO should be shoulder to shoulder with those junior in relegated tasks. If the leadership team feels an NCO still needs to be at the level of a E-4 and below then that NCO should have never been sent to Leadership Ckirses or recommended for the board for advancement.
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SGT Stephen Scott
Not the way it worked in late 70'sand early 80's. We were teacher. I ran the night shift aircraft armament/missle system repair at a Direct Support unit supporting 6th ACCB, at Fort Hood. That was fun, but other than that my stripes didn't mean much to anybody.
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MSG (Join to see)
So, I retired several years ago from the Army. Having said that, I still try to help Soldiers in any capacity that I can.
Here are my thoughts regarding layouts. First and foremost layouts are conducted in order to ensure equipment is accounted for and serviceable. The company commander is ultimately signed for and responsible for all equipment and Soldiers in his command. Therefore layouts are a tool for commanders to ensure his/ her unit is prepared to meet any contingencies from from training events to combat.
As Sergeants and Staff Sergeants are part of the chain of command, they lead Soldiers through layouts. This is an opportunity for training and leadership by example. Sergeants Major, First Sergeants/Master Sergeants, and Platoon Sergeants are not part of the chain of command and are senior NCOs. The job of senior NCOs is to facilitate and resource training. Also due to their vast experience they guide and plan training events and mentor junior NCOs and Soldiers.
The thought that something is unfair displays a lack of understanding about what the event actually is accomplishing. These skills (and layouts are a skill) directly translate into combat tasks such as Pre Combat Checks (PCCs) and Pre Combat Inspections (PCIs). PCCs are conducted by squad and team leaders. PCIs are conducted by platoon leaders and platoon sergeants.
As a Sergeant and Staff Sergeant I relished the opportunity to show what the standard was to my Soldiers and team leaders. I believe that reframing what standards are meant to accomplish in one’s mind is the key to chasing the unfair attitude someone may have and guide Soldiers and junior NCOs as to what right looks like. You are preparing your Soldiers for war. This is serious business and a focus that can be lost in a garrison environment.
Finally I will close with a maxim that was old when I came in, “Soldiers don’t do what you Expect, Soldiers only do what you Inspect”.
Here are my thoughts regarding layouts. First and foremost layouts are conducted in order to ensure equipment is accounted for and serviceable. The company commander is ultimately signed for and responsible for all equipment and Soldiers in his command. Therefore layouts are a tool for commanders to ensure his/ her unit is prepared to meet any contingencies from from training events to combat.
As Sergeants and Staff Sergeants are part of the chain of command, they lead Soldiers through layouts. This is an opportunity for training and leadership by example. Sergeants Major, First Sergeants/Master Sergeants, and Platoon Sergeants are not part of the chain of command and are senior NCOs. The job of senior NCOs is to facilitate and resource training. Also due to their vast experience they guide and plan training events and mentor junior NCOs and Soldiers.
The thought that something is unfair displays a lack of understanding about what the event actually is accomplishing. These skills (and layouts are a skill) directly translate into combat tasks such as Pre Combat Checks (PCCs) and Pre Combat Inspections (PCIs). PCCs are conducted by squad and team leaders. PCIs are conducted by platoon leaders and platoon sergeants.
As a Sergeant and Staff Sergeant I relished the opportunity to show what the standard was to my Soldiers and team leaders. I believe that reframing what standards are meant to accomplish in one’s mind is the key to chasing the unfair attitude someone may have and guide Soldiers and junior NCOs as to what right looks like. You are preparing your Soldiers for war. This is serious business and a focus that can be lost in a garrison environment.
Finally I will close with a maxim that was old when I came in, “Soldiers don’t do what you Expect, Soldiers only do what you Inspect”.
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I was raised that Sergeant (E-5), is the most challenging and most challenged rank in the Army. Why? The Sergeant is the most resourceful, knows their Soldiers the most, and most relied upon.
When I was a PSG, I made sure that my Soldiers and NCO's understood that if you are a Sergeant (E-5), you will be a leader who counsels, trains, and provides mentorship. The Soldiers knew that their Sergeant (first line) is their financial advisor, mentor, confidant, executive administrator, spokes person, coach, expert, time keeper, librarian, writer, life representative, note keeper, supply guy, motivator, personal trainer, dietitian, support network, your biggest fan, marksmanship coach, family advisor and taxi cab.
Maybe, those Sergeant (E-5's) are not accountable and someone with higher rank had to do their job, so they were micro-managed.
Allow your Soldiers and NCO's to know exactly what you expect as their leader and they will not stray to the left or right. If they do...... Consequences and repercussions are evident..
off my soap box.
When I was a PSG, I made sure that my Soldiers and NCO's understood that if you are a Sergeant (E-5), you will be a leader who counsels, trains, and provides mentorship. The Soldiers knew that their Sergeant (first line) is their financial advisor, mentor, confidant, executive administrator, spokes person, coach, expert, time keeper, librarian, writer, life representative, note keeper, supply guy, motivator, personal trainer, dietitian, support network, your biggest fan, marksmanship coach, family advisor and taxi cab.
Maybe, those Sergeant (E-5's) are not accountable and someone with higher rank had to do their job, so they were micro-managed.
Allow your Soldiers and NCO's to know exactly what you expect as their leader and they will not stray to the left or right. If they do...... Consequences and repercussions are evident..
off my soap box.
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SGT Joseph Schmalzel
So well said. As an E-5 I was literally carring a Cav Troop on my shoulders. Flight Instructor, Crew Chief, Safety NCO, Fire Marshal (Barracks and Hanger), Respritory awareness NCO, Armorer, Arms Room NCO, Master Gunner, Training platoon NCO (Different from my actual Platoon) Platoon SGT. had 10 soldiers, 5 Blackhawks and 2 other E-5's.
The 2 other Platoons called us the E-15 platoon and all wanted to be a part.
The E-5 is possibly the most important of all ranks.
The 2 other Platoons called us the E-15 platoon and all wanted to be a part.
The E-5 is possibly the most important of all ranks.
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PO3 John Wagner
Well, maybe your uppers were,thinking of you for a promotion but,wanted to get more performance out of you...don't get me wrong...E5 is a prom,option level which does bring a greater level of responsibility however as I said perhaps your seniors,were,looking,to bring you up and saw that you had the ability in you to make it farther if some,minor "weakness" as they may have perceived it.. I say this not in judgement but to express the possibity of a wrong interpretation by yourself. Please have heart and confidence.
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Due to the fast promotion rate during the wars, we promoted Soldiers who were not ready, abused their rank or had no idea what duties and responsibilities come with the greatest rank which are those three stripes. A Sergeant leads by example. He/She is the true enforcer of our discipline and stardards- the bull dog. I seen that pride dissolve in many and in place of that.....became poor leadership. Square it away; but look in the marrior and ask yourself if you are worthy of those stripes and what those stripes mean.
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SSG (Join to see)
A lot of that falls on us SGT, we have to ensure ur ready and prepared. We are responsible for you as you are responsible for the Soldiers. As a SSG I am responsible to ensure u know what I expect and if u overstep your lane it's my job to fix it. I also (and this is hard for me ) need to step back and let you lead. I do not criticize you in front of the Soldiers you lead that's a one on one mentoring event. Remember you should expect support from me too, don't let me fail you.
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SSG (Join to see)
SFC (Join to see) actually what ur describing is how the Army has changed. The Lieutenants once upon a time were in the back of the formation and the NCO s were up front. The Army decided the LT s needed to lead more so it's not just bad NCO s.
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SSG (Join to see)
SGT Timothy Rocheleau ok you've been out for a while, I had a 19 year break in service and found out in 2008 there was such a thing as automatic integration. Yes if an MOS was short staffed the cutoff would basically be is the E4 flagged? No, ok has he or she got a year TIG yes, ok do they have 4 years TIS YES OK promote to Sergeant or Staff Sergeant
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My E-5s are NCOs and they are treated as such. In fact as a mentor it is our responsibility to train them to replace us at some point as we move on. I relie on them as my first line and try to let them develop a style of leadership on thier own.
While attending ALC a few years back, as an E-5, trainees didn't even bat an eye or "make way" for me. My friend, an E-6, would step out the door and the seas would part! It was quite a good laugh seeing it!
It's apparently being taught at the schools that E-5 isn't as respectable a rank these days? Also, they're not learning military customs and curtiousies as well as they should!
While attending ALC a few years back, as an E-5, trainees didn't even bat an eye or "make way" for me. My friend, an E-6, would step out the door and the seas would part! It was quite a good laugh seeing it!
It's apparently being taught at the schools that E-5 isn't as respectable a rank these days? Also, they're not learning military customs and curtiousies as well as they should!
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SSG Mike Angelo
ya...its a 2 way street...the E-5 needs nurturing and coaching...in addition to getting head out of ass. Kudos to self motivation.
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SFC (Join to see)
I've seen a lot of that too SFC (Join to see). But from what I've witnessed (for the most part), it's the Sergeant's trying to be friends with their subordinates, rather than putting "foot-to-butt".
The parting of the virtual sea of Privates comes from portraying a position of authority. I've had Corporals that demand the respect due to an NCO, while the Sergeant (or Staff Sergeant... dare I say Sergeant First Class) next to them, played screw-around games with the troops.
The parting of the virtual sea of Privates comes from portraying a position of authority. I've had Corporals that demand the respect due to an NCO, while the Sergeant (or Staff Sergeant... dare I say Sergeant First Class) next to them, played screw-around games with the troops.
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SFC (Join to see)
These are all true statements. It's our responsibility to get involved in changing our environment. The reasons vary and we could start a whole new topic on what happened to the "old school" or " back in my day" military. What we need to do is go back to grass roots and clean up our own house starting at a team level on up!
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SFC (Join to see)
Now school house is teaching this SSG, the SOLDIERS are not idiots, they are taught the rank structure. They see E1-E4 in training with them so they know next is E5 so they think your rank is right there with that of an E5. It's up to us to teach otherwise.
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It boils down to maturity level if you are an NCO who is always doing the right thing even when no one is around you will be treated in higher regards. It has become a trend that soldiers who promote fast show lack of true military maturity. Keep you chin up.
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I totally agree with you I attended ALC two years ago and I'm currently doing SSD3 because I did SSD2 last year. I've been deployed 42 months and still have guys who made E6 recently talking to me like I'm new to the Army. I mean come on I been promote blessed since March last year so points is my only holdup.
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SFC William Farrell
Good luck Sgt(P) Spruill, hopefully you make it soon. And let those new E6's know where you've been!
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SSG Jamil Spruill
Thank you SFC Farrell I'm so close to reclassing just to make rank because this promotion system is pathetic
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E-1 to E-4 are treated like young teenagers.
E-5 are 16-18 treated as almost like adults.
E-6 are 19-21 Are full adults and some times allowed to legally drink
E-7 are full adults.
For better or worse that is how I see it.
E-5 are 16-18 treated as almost like adults.
E-6 are 19-21 Are full adults and some times allowed to legally drink
E-7 are full adults.
For better or worse that is how I see it.
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SSG (Join to see)
Because the Corps doesn't graduate responsibility and respect... Pull the other leg. But you in general reduce my scale by one pay grade for Marine and British forces.
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PVT Robert Gresham
If you were Combat Infantry you might have to clean up your numbers. Why should a combat ready troop, who is ready to lead a squad (at least in my day), has passed a promotion board of superior NCOs, and receives top Evaluation Reports be treated like a 16 to 18 year old? Would you want to be treated like a 19 to 21 year old.......??Seriously, think about it.
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This happens in units where the E-5/Sgt is known as one of the troops. It would be ideal to transfer the Sgt to another section or unit but such a situation would be challenging to personnel sections. A swap is good, but still...a good NCO support chain for that new E-5 Sgt would have to do.
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It's interesting that you mention this because in the Not in My Squad Workshop that convened this week at Washington D.C. we shared with SMA Dailey that our team leaders are the most important leaders in our units. In our workstudy we pioneered a pilot workshop that is going to bring a huge change in our current culture. All 32 NCO's from around the world realized that Soldiers are human and deserve to be treated with dignity, respect and inclusion. For years we have disregarded people due to the fast cycles of deployment but it is time to slow the pace down and really take a moment to value the Soldiers we serve and who follow our footsteps.
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SSG (Join to see)
This isn't just a unit situation. Its a post wide one. When I would come in the arms room when the alarm would go off at 2 am or whatever I would be searched every time because I was what they said "just an E5". But if I was an E6 I would never get checked. Same thing with traveling to other bases for training, I was unable to go check out the training area without an E6 as an escort or a battle buddy. Just seems like even as a NCO your not really an NCO until you hit E6 now days.
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When I was in, I made the comment that an E-5 was just a private in the NCO Corp, and people would get upset. but it doesn't make the statement less true. We have the rank but Senior Enlisted just doesn't seem to trust the E-5
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SFC Rollie Hubbard
You have to remember that an E-5 is like a butter bar they get it coming and going.
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SSG Larry Hill
Because you as an E-5 are still being molded and mentored to become the best leader possible for the enlisted man .
There are times that you will feel like a private, and some time it feels like it will never end but of course it well. You were also being looked at under a microscope and being gently pushed into the directions, and given skills to make you one of the best senior NCO 'S that the U.S.ARMY HAS TO OFFER
There are times that you will feel like a private, and some time it feels like it will never end but of course it well. You were also being looked at under a microscope and being gently pushed into the directions, and given skills to make you one of the best senior NCO 'S that the U.S.ARMY HAS TO OFFER
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