Posted on Oct 3, 2016
Why is it that we have SNCOs who are on their way out the door and do not want to share knowledge or help JNCOs progress?
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Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 43
Why is it common for newly promoted SSG to see how much more, how much better they can do with newfound rank and authority while others work to see how much less they can get away with.?
Why do some newly promoted SGT put thier head down and really get into the job while others find new and better ways to sham?
Why does the outgoing CSM, SGM, 1SG. MSG "check out" the last year, 10 months?... well for sure, some are assholes and have been skating for long before that... and some have been devoting every waking min to others, to the mission, to the soldiers..and when that retirement order hits the desk they realize how screwed they are, no plans, ignored family for years, nothing but the Army,,and that's ending..so they dig into what comes next while they still can. They ignore the old, the unit now being navigated by a new leader and focus on the family, themselves, for the first time in 28 years, 7 months...
Every Soldier has to end thier career at some point.. the ones that have been doing it right for 20 plus years....dont you think they deserve some time at the end to focus on them and thier family..so they can have a decent life after Army?
Why do some newly promoted SGT put thier head down and really get into the job while others find new and better ways to sham?
Why does the outgoing CSM, SGM, 1SG. MSG "check out" the last year, 10 months?... well for sure, some are assholes and have been skating for long before that... and some have been devoting every waking min to others, to the mission, to the soldiers..and when that retirement order hits the desk they realize how screwed they are, no plans, ignored family for years, nothing but the Army,,and that's ending..so they dig into what comes next while they still can. They ignore the old, the unit now being navigated by a new leader and focus on the family, themselves, for the first time in 28 years, 7 months...
Every Soldier has to end thier career at some point.. the ones that have been doing it right for 20 plus years....dont you think they deserve some time at the end to focus on them and thier family..so they can have a decent life after Army?
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PO1 Donald Hammond
Doing it right means family first. When the burden of the military crushes your family life, it is time to get out and take care of family. Even if that means not getting that retirement.
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SGM Erik Marquez
PO1 Donald Hammond - I dont dismiss your position, or discount it is right for your.
I had an Army life before an Army wife. My Army wife, know what she was getting into, being a NCO herself. While I wont say my Army life came before my family life, i will say there was a lot of give and take,,and that was clear on the get go... i would never turn down an assignment, a school, a TDY, a chance to do more, better, for more people.
That was never army over her, and later the boys, it was, just the agreed upon situation from the start.
Bottom line, many of use choose to have an Army life first, and family life as well....not the other way around...and I would take exception greatly to someone claiming that was improper or not just FOR MY FAMILY.
I had an Army life before an Army wife. My Army wife, know what she was getting into, being a NCO herself. While I wont say my Army life came before my family life, i will say there was a lot of give and take,,and that was clear on the get go... i would never turn down an assignment, a school, a TDY, a chance to do more, better, for more people.
That was never army over her, and later the boys, it was, just the agreed upon situation from the start.
Bottom line, many of use choose to have an Army life first, and family life as well....not the other way around...and I would take exception greatly to someone claiming that was improper or not just FOR MY FAMILY.
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CW4 Angel C.
Damn SGM that was an outstanding answer!!! Reminds me of how I felt after 23 years of service getting ready to retire and this overzealous Major who accused me of leaving my SFC (a damn sharp one too) hanging because I wouldn't change a VA appointment and him and the SFC had to go to a meeting at Division by themselves. Yeah that Major and others were pretty butt-hurt when I had to become selfish and put all my focus on me and my family. This is definitely something the Army has to get better at.
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SFC Richard Bland
You need more than 8 to 10 months to get ready for the rest of your life. That being said, Those young leaders SSG/SFC should have been PAYING ATTENTION!!! They can have there hands held all the time. Its called OJT For those that don't know On The Job Training.. What would happen if that retiring NCO Drop dead god forbid. What then? They should be ready for whatever reason. No excuses. What was the point in getting promoted. SSG/SFC are suppose to be ready to take over at ANYTIME, moment notice, ASAP, RIGHT NOW..
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The simple answer is some of them are getting kicked out and the others are busy thinking of what they're doing after military life and retirement. I don't begrudge them in either case. I had a couple SNCOs retire and they were almost never there. Between medical appointments, separation classes, job interviews, packing and moving, they pretty much had a full plate. And the ones who were getting kicked out, do you really want their knowledge?
The way I see it, if you want the knowledge of your superiors, it's your duty to seek them out when they are available. When my Gunnys were in shop, I was shadowing them for any bit of knowledge I could get. It's all about Initiative. If you don't want the knowledge, they're not going to give it to you. But if you are ready and want it, they'll give you all the knowledge and wisdom from their career.
But if you are waiting to learn when they've got their foot out the door, then it's already too late.
The way I see it, if you want the knowledge of your superiors, it's your duty to seek them out when they are available. When my Gunnys were in shop, I was shadowing them for any bit of knowledge I could get. It's all about Initiative. If you don't want the knowledge, they're not going to give it to you. But if you are ready and want it, they'll give you all the knowledge and wisdom from their career.
But if you are waiting to learn when they've got their foot out the door, then it's already too late.
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SFC (Join to see)
Cpl,
There is always some good that comes out of the bad. Think about how they would treat you or other marines. Would you want to treat your marines the same way?
There is always some good that comes out of the bad. Think about how they would treat you or other marines. Would you want to treat your marines the same way?
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Cpl Justin Goolsby
SFC (Join to see) - You are correct that even good can come from bad, but that is not the question that you asked. I've made it a point to raise all my Junior Marines to learn from both good and bad leaders because as they progress they are going to see the type of leaders they want to emulate and the kind of leaders they don't want to emulate.
But your specific question was asking why SNCOs don't share their knowledge when they're halfway out the door. And the simple was because they're halfway out the door.
But your specific question was asking why SNCOs don't share their knowledge when they're halfway out the door. And the simple was because they're halfway out the door.
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SSG-
Let me give you the other side of that coin. At a Command I was at I was Primary on several systems, two of which were specialty units. I had all the knowledge, I ran the shop maintenance program. 9 months out from my transfer I started trying to hand these systems off. No one would take them and the CoC did not see a reason for them too. 6 months, 3 months, 1 month... No one would step up or wanted to learn them. By this time I realized they had screwed them selves over and I let them by not forcing them to do the jobs. I was helping in setting them up for failure. So I dumped it on top of them hard and dirty. They complained to the CoC who wanted to know why I had zero maintenance and why I had assigned it to the rest of the shop. I explained they needed to learn it while I was still there to answer questions. Well they all played games and only did the easy work, no one asked any questions, and they pushed maintenance right to avoid it thinking I would do it for them. I transferred and for 3 months after I got Questions and requests for sops emailed almost daily, and at least a dozen phone calls some in the middle of the night.
Quite frankly while a good leader should teach those under them, the JNCO have a responsibility to step up and request the information. Why should we all waste time teaching people if they really have no interest to learn? Any one of my Junior people that come and ASK me questions I will spend as long as it takes to answer them. But i'm not going to waste my time with people that don't want to learn.
Let me give you the other side of that coin. At a Command I was at I was Primary on several systems, two of which were specialty units. I had all the knowledge, I ran the shop maintenance program. 9 months out from my transfer I started trying to hand these systems off. No one would take them and the CoC did not see a reason for them too. 6 months, 3 months, 1 month... No one would step up or wanted to learn them. By this time I realized they had screwed them selves over and I let them by not forcing them to do the jobs. I was helping in setting them up for failure. So I dumped it on top of them hard and dirty. They complained to the CoC who wanted to know why I had zero maintenance and why I had assigned it to the rest of the shop. I explained they needed to learn it while I was still there to answer questions. Well they all played games and only did the easy work, no one asked any questions, and they pushed maintenance right to avoid it thinking I would do it for them. I transferred and for 3 months after I got Questions and requests for sops emailed almost daily, and at least a dozen phone calls some in the middle of the night.
Quite frankly while a good leader should teach those under them, the JNCO have a responsibility to step up and request the information. Why should we all waste time teaching people if they really have no interest to learn? Any one of my Junior people that come and ASK me questions I will spend as long as it takes to answer them. But i'm not going to waste my time with people that don't want to learn.
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SMSgt Steve Neal
Gotta break a few eggs to make and omelette! The negative consequences of having a single system expert do everything runs against job/task diversity and contingency or combat preparation. When your expert leaves, the mission suffers... (Dumb) However, after my 27 years spreading electronic systems maintenance knowledge in the USAF, I find the FAA has BAD habit of doing EXACTLY what happened to you. The FNGs yearn for knowledge and hands-on system experience, but the seasoned experts would rather "skate by" and do minimal maintenance (ZERO training) and collect their overly fat paychecks to their last day on duty. The FAA is headed for a huge knowledge pothole and when they have to privatize (contract out) ATC systems support it is because there's no incentive for systems experts to share corporate knowledge.
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SGT Eric Knutson
I know that feeling all to well, I was at one location, been running the section for almost 18 months as the only NCO. most of my kids knew what they needed to do their job as well as most of mine (that the way to promotion, know your job and your bosses so you are ready to step in on PCS or combat loss) I reuped for a PCS and started asking for another NCO so I could get them ready for the load. Both the SNCO and the Warrent kept telling me that I am not going anywhere so don't worry about it. Both were fairly new to the unit but got off on the wrong foot with just about every person in the unit. (yes, they are the boss, but if you mistreat your people think about how much they will go out of their way for the mission, or will they step back to "just my job" mentality. We have already talked about toxic leaders here) When I left finally (only let me have 3 days to clear and go to a deployed unit married at the time) my E4's all knew where everything was. so I had my job done. but starting 2 days later the calls started coming in, "where is this, where is that" new Chief asked me what happened, told her and after that she went to the CoC and the phone calls we no longer received by the unit. If my troops had a questioon, they called my wife and I would call them back same day because I will always be available to my troops, even if they are no longer mine.
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Here is an answer that will make you think, a lot of the senior NCO have chosen not to share their knowledge with the junior NCO because they prefer that Junior NCO learn on their own through trial and error, more so because there has been so many changes within the military. About the only good advice that a Senior NCO can give to a Junior NCO is "Stay Flexible, Stay Flexible."
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
CPT Pedro Meza - I was also one of those NCOs with the Viet Nam service background. We weren't into the chick stuff (being polite) but getting the job done the way it was meant to be done and working together, We did and it worked.
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CPT Pedro Meza
SMSgt Lawrence McCarter - In 85, the team that I lead in Colombia were all Vietnam veterans, with one SFC Fagan being one of the few survivors of the Beirut Barracks bombing. My team stayed calm under the circumstances we found ourselves in, president Reagan had issues orders that we were not to be armed at any time. The guys took it as a challenge, and I moved them around so that we stayed in different places. We succeed thanks to their war experience and the calm in which they approached the challenges we faced.
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
CPT Pedro Meza - One of My friends who was an usher at My wedding was with DEA down in Colombia for 3 and 1/2 years. Prior to DEA he had been a Police Detective here in MA.
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CPT Pedro Meza
SMSgt Lawrence McCarter - I was involved in Colombia from 85-92, and will say that the DEA gals and guys had their hands full, being military was easier because DEA was constantly working within the confines of laws and arrest and evidence, while military was waiting for permission to act. Crazy times, but the agua ardiente was good and the ladies deadly. Of course Colombia end my marriage because I was on an adrenaline rush for 7 years.
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If a SNCO has always mentored and looked to train junior NCO's from all the lessons learned over the decades then they will most likely continue to do so as the leave the building and in many cases years after they are out of uniform. If another group of SNCO's always kept to themselves, never looked out for anyone but themselves and were shitty leaders to say the least why would any Junior NCO want to learn from them? The secret to leadership is having the basic building blocks within you and then taking and making other good/great NCO abilities your own as you serve with those examples and under them. I will tell you this, serving under the older generations of NCO's who served in the 70's was not an experience for the gentler souls. In those days you avoided SNCO's like the plague and if you were unfortunate enough to be walking on the sidewalk when you BN CSM was on his way to your company from the other direction. Lets say a smart NCO/troop remembered they forgot something the other way fast. Think CSM Plumbley as played by Sam Elliot in "We where Soldiers". You don't go out of your way to Chat with SNCO's for fun. I was no Great SNCO but to my credit even the troops and Officer who hated my guts spoke well of me most of the time because I was a big pain in the ass and spoke my mind regardless of tact. To this day I remember every good and great NCO I served with and what I took away from their brand of leadership. The Phuckstick NCO's I knew are also in my head as what not to be/do.
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Good question. There will always be individuals that believe their part is done and it's time to move on. You just have to remind them to finish out their service honorably and to the full responsibility of the rank they hold.
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Part of the problem is that many of these SNCOs have no knowledge to share! They got their rank by filling their boxes and not fucking up. When there was 'work' to be done, they made it a point to be somewhere else getting bullet statements for their EPRs or jumping through their ass to get this or that award or decoration. They went to the various schools and academies to fill boxes, not really learn anything to use. In fact, most of what they were taught there would and could only work IF everyone else was doing what they were supposed to do. But they do not. They are too busy getting their rank by filling their boxes and not fucking up! How did I get my rank? A few good decisions, the help of quite a few good people and blind dumb luck.
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SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
I found also by visiting sections under Me and once in a while actually sitting down with them and doing some of the work with them I gained knowledge of tasks I would not have been doing Myself. I got better input into what they were dealing with and it gave them a chance to communicate with Me. I feel is something isn't working right the people in those shops will know but I won't if I don't bother looking. Sometimes when people advance to higher positions they forget where they came from, it was My intent not to do that. They stayed busy, not that I had nothing to do with meetings, watching over large numbers of people but delegate Authority where its needed, support You NCOs and their troops and make everyone feel they are part of the team and guess what, things actually work well. Leave things in a place where there are already people that can step into You place once You are gone with a seamless transition. Even when I knew I was going I devoted time to train My replacement and made sure I cleaned up all the loose end before He took over. Don't ever leave someone else Your mess to clean up !
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SMSgt Steve Neal
I got to E-8 the hard way... 8 years as an E-7, always 200 points short on WAPS board score because I didn't play the political game, then foolishly volunteered to "T-Shirt" for a remote base Comm Squadron (best job ever!), earned 8th FW SNCOQ, and the next cycle I cleared WAPS cut-off by 50 points. But, since I was never equipped to play the political "Yes-Man" (butt-shark / plate-spinner) game, I was never gonna make E-9. I just went on toward retirement doing all I could for the teams I built; protecting each member from the inevitable BS that highly diverse teams invite...
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Guess I won't ask SGM Erik Marquez how he really feels. Bottom line, if you've been giving it your all for so long, at some point you stop looking around and start looking outwards beyond where you're at now. I didn't have that luxury as my final tour was in a Skipper slot but it was Reserves, hence I had a day job and a lot of people to worry about there too. And as predicted, I started looking outwards when I was about 6-9 months out from that as you have to get paperwork in, have to work on your backfill, start the house remodel so we could get the hell away, and the list goes on. Transitions are big things that take time and energy. Be glad you're given your space when that time comes.
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The knowledge was hard to acquire. Why should they deprive YOU of the joys of learning?
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