4
4
0
Islam has been a taboo subject in many countries around the world. Its very discussion causes to many become squeamish and uncomfortable. Many times this is due to the ambiguity of what Islam is in the western world. Too many people have no idea what Islam is because they haven't taken the time to read their sacred immutable texts. I am curious how many of our own really know much about it.
-Sorry I was hoping the Survey would be a yes or no-
This can spawn some pretty hefty debate. Having read the sacred texts will be invaluable as a foundation to discuss and add value to the thread, but not necessary. I hope we can keep this from becoming ad hominem, because we ALL signed up as brothers and sisters under the same flag, regardless of what we call God.
-Sorry I was hoping the Survey would be a yes or no-
This can spawn some pretty hefty debate. Having read the sacred texts will be invaluable as a foundation to discuss and add value to the thread, but not necessary. I hope we can keep this from becoming ad hominem, because we ALL signed up as brothers and sisters under the same flag, regardless of what we call God.
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 11
I have read and researched. My personal opinion and conclusion is that our way of life and the Islamic way of life are not compatible. Not if you truly read and understand it.
(8)
(0)
CPL(P) (Join to see)
Yeah, because we are Dar-Al-Harb and aren't even human according to their texts.
(2)
(0)
SPC David S.
I prefer Dar al-Kuf - Realm of the Heathens. However you fail to mention Dar al-'Ahd and or Dar al-Amn. Most Middle East countries are - Dar al-Islam and are ruled by a Muslim government. However using Western history as a guide in how we manged to break away from the monarchies of our past an Islamic democracy may well be a viable regime in the Middle East at some point. However the outlook for such a state appears bleak in the current environment. If we look at Muslim-majority societies themselves they seem to be holding on to old ways which has prevented any forward movement. You step outside the Middle East Malaysia headed in the right direction.
(2)
(0)
CPL(P) (Join to see)
SPC David S. - Interesting. Is it because of the secularism of the way they are acting in Malaysia?
(0)
(0)
SPC David S.
For one Malaysia negotiated with Britain for their independence - that's right no war. As well sound economic growth - good GDP, a stable political environment - no coups, an English speaking country with decent natural resources among others things ensures a steady flow of investors as well in the middle of shipping lanes - helps foster diversity and tolerance. However here's the kicker - while the constitution grants freedom of religion and makes Malaysia an officially secular state, the Malaysian government has strict policies against other Islamic sects, including a ban on Shia Islam. While not fully there it is removing some forms of its religion from politics in this manner. The next hard step will be to remove the Sunni sect and that might never happen.
(0)
(0)
Islam is a very interesting religion/political system. It means, submission to the one true god of the Kaaba. At it's core is Islam's perfect man. Muhammad.
After studying Islam since 1983, I find the true believers are simply following the second half of Muhammad's life. What did Muhammad do?
Once you understand Muhammad and his behaviour, you can understand why Islam causes chaos everywhere it goes.
It plays it's role well in the destruction of culture. See Europe and Deerborn, ME.
M. Morris RVT
After studying Islam since 1983, I find the true believers are simply following the second half of Muhammad's life. What did Muhammad do?
Once you understand Muhammad and his behaviour, you can understand why Islam causes chaos everywhere it goes.
It plays it's role well in the destruction of culture. See Europe and Deerborn, ME.
M. Morris RVT
(2)
(0)
CPL(P) (Join to see)
Abrogation is why only the second part, the Yathrib aka Medina quran, is of any meaning and is of great concern.
(1)
(0)
The West is ignorant of Islam for many reasons.
-Immigrants to North America for most of the last 400 years came from Europe and were primarily Christians
-Some slaves brought into North America were Muslims, but lost that religion as their masters forced them to accept Christianity
-US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and a great majority of our Citizens considered themselves Christian until the late 20th Century
-Europeans probably have a greater awareness of Islam because of proximity to majority-Muslim countries.
-In the US, the study of Islam historically is limited to Universities and a few other people who become interested or those who choose to convert
Answers to your questions:
Read the Quran--No. Only excepts.
Read the Hadith--No.
Rule of abrogation--No
Islam peaceful--No
Taught in public schools--No. If Christianity is banned, then all other religions should be banned. This is not to say that recognition of Religions as a part of history should not be taught; religions influence history, politics, art, music, language, theater, and many other aspects of life. Understanding those influences through understanding the religion is desirable.
As a practicing Christian, I believe Islam is a false religion. It's followers do not worship the true God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jesus. They do not accept Jesus as God and his sacrifice on the cross as sufficient for the forgiveness of sins. Nor do they accept his resurrection and victory over death. Islam is a "do" religion. That is, if the follower does certain things it will please Allah and credit the Muslim in the after-life.
Americans are often uncomfortable with Islam because it mixes religion and government. It has kept its own set of laws and tries to enforce them where ever Muslims live. Jews and Christians separated religion and government in many countries starting in the 18th Century (US Revolution, French Revolution, British Common Law). The power of the Church and Synagogue in people's lives remains in the moral arena. Islam hasn't made this change yet. Secular Muslim-majority countries like historical Turkey did exist. They followed the Western model of separation of religion and government to some degree. They seem to be disappearing.
Many of the Muslim laws and customs are counter to the US Constitution. I don't understand how a true Muslim can take the US Oath of Enlistment/Office and swear to defend the Consitiution. To do so is counter to the teachings of his or her faith. Of course, you've got the "it's okay to lie to the infidel" factor to consider.
-Immigrants to North America for most of the last 400 years came from Europe and were primarily Christians
-Some slaves brought into North America were Muslims, but lost that religion as their masters forced them to accept Christianity
-US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles and a great majority of our Citizens considered themselves Christian until the late 20th Century
-Europeans probably have a greater awareness of Islam because of proximity to majority-Muslim countries.
-In the US, the study of Islam historically is limited to Universities and a few other people who become interested or those who choose to convert
Answers to your questions:
Read the Quran--No. Only excepts.
Read the Hadith--No.
Rule of abrogation--No
Islam peaceful--No
Taught in public schools--No. If Christianity is banned, then all other religions should be banned. This is not to say that recognition of Religions as a part of history should not be taught; religions influence history, politics, art, music, language, theater, and many other aspects of life. Understanding those influences through understanding the religion is desirable.
As a practicing Christian, I believe Islam is a false religion. It's followers do not worship the true God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jesus. They do not accept Jesus as God and his sacrifice on the cross as sufficient for the forgiveness of sins. Nor do they accept his resurrection and victory over death. Islam is a "do" religion. That is, if the follower does certain things it will please Allah and credit the Muslim in the after-life.
Americans are often uncomfortable with Islam because it mixes religion and government. It has kept its own set of laws and tries to enforce them where ever Muslims live. Jews and Christians separated religion and government in many countries starting in the 18th Century (US Revolution, French Revolution, British Common Law). The power of the Church and Synagogue in people's lives remains in the moral arena. Islam hasn't made this change yet. Secular Muslim-majority countries like historical Turkey did exist. They followed the Western model of separation of religion and government to some degree. They seem to be disappearing.
Many of the Muslim laws and customs are counter to the US Constitution. I don't understand how a true Muslim can take the US Oath of Enlistment/Office and swear to defend the Consitiution. To do so is counter to the teachings of his or her faith. Of course, you've got the "it's okay to lie to the infidel" factor to consider.
(2)
(0)
Ok, just the question is entirely off base. Calling western civilization ignorant of one single religion is absurd. Not because it isn't true that we are uninformed of the belief system, but because for much of the population of it is not their belief then they don't know much about it period. In not Jewish, Mormon, or Muslim, this I do not know much about any of these. I think what spurs my anger towards the Muslim faith is that it is often used as a call to kill. I don't see many Mormons tying bombs to their chests and blowing up public venues. That's the problem. This is also why many don't really care to learn or educate themselves about the Muslim faith. If it can even be construed so as to commit mass murder and be rewarded by the faith then I know that I don't care to try to understand it at all.
(2)
(0)
Yes to the first three, no to four and five. Most people haven't read the Koran because it is a beast to read and they haven't even finished the Bible yet.
(2)
(0)
CPT Lawrence Cable
CPL(P) (Join to see) - The version I read had footnoted where each Shurah fit in the Chronology and had history notes, so that made it some easier. The author choose to use the language and cadence of the King James Bible, which he claimed was closer to the original Arabic than just a straight translation. And yes, the Koran reads like an apocalyptic version of a combination of Joshua's conquest of Canaan and Revelations.
The history of Islam during and after the Prophet is one of military conquest. The simple fact is that all of Europe would be Muslim today if the Mongols hadn't conquered a large portion of the Islamic Countries at the time. Most Americans suck at world history, or at least that beyond the World Wars, and forget that the Mughals ruled most of India and Pakistan up until 1806. Even in Europe, the last Siege of Vienna by the Ottoman's was in 1683, relatively recent history for Europe. The existence of the US Navy is a result of Islamic Pirates.
The history of Islam during and after the Prophet is one of military conquest. The simple fact is that all of Europe would be Muslim today if the Mongols hadn't conquered a large portion of the Islamic Countries at the time. Most Americans suck at world history, or at least that beyond the World Wars, and forget that the Mughals ruled most of India and Pakistan up until 1806. Even in Europe, the last Siege of Vienna by the Ottoman's was in 1683, relatively recent history for Europe. The existence of the US Navy is a result of Islamic Pirates.
(0)
(0)
LTC David Brown
CPT Lawrence Cable - I think we had a Navy but the Marines were a result of State sanctioned piracy by the Muslim nations of the Barbary Coast.
(0)
(0)
MCPO Roger Collins
From military. Com
The United States Marine Corps was established on November 10, 1775, to augment naval forces in the Revolutionary War. The recruiting headquarters was set up by Capt. Samuel Nicholas in the Tun Tavern on Water Street in Philadelphia, which is considered to be the birthplace of the Marines.
The United States Marine Corps was established on November 10, 1775, to augment naval forces in the Revolutionary War. The recruiting headquarters was set up by Capt. Samuel Nicholas in the Tun Tavern on Water Street in Philadelphia, which is considered to be the birthplace of the Marines.
(0)
(0)
CPT Lawrence Cable
LTC David Brown - There is a fairly recent book called "Thomas Jefferson and the Tripoli Pirates" that goes into the history of that conflict. Apparently that after the end of the Revolutionary War, we did not have a standing Navy. Good book if you are a history Geek like me.
(0)
(0)
Making up a questionnaire isn't as easy as it looks, is it? This one mixes together dissimilar choices. How can I answer yes to "Do you understand the rule of abrogation?" and "Should this religion be taught in public school if they ban the others?"? No, I haven't read the Quran or the Hadith, but have studied scholarly works citing them. To be fair, I tried reading them, but became bored. Same with the Book of Mormon and the Holy Bible (got lost in the "begats"). As a student of history, I have studied the religious influences that have driven much of it. As a student of law, I well understand the differences between Sharia, English Common Law, Roman Law, etc. Common Law and English Ecclesiastical Law (Equity) (the basis of all US law except Louisiana) and Roman Law (the basis of Louisiana law) are fundamentally founded on the view of man as a self-governing individual living in a community of like people who require minimal supervision. Sharia Law is fundamentally founded on the concept that man is a slave to his baser nature and must submit to authority (both religious and civil - but I repeat myself). Should Islam be taught in American schools while others are banned? Yes and no. Yes, all should be taught to help students understand history. None should be taught as a life guide. That is the prerogative and responsibility of parents and their religious community.
(2)
(0)
CPL(P) (Join to see)
My friend CPT Durish, I'm glad to see you weigh in. You had the same finding I did when I read the Quran. I fell asleep and had to re-read it over and over the first two times. Once you get the hack on the chronology and read it from a chronological standpoint it opens up and gets really bizarre and interesting. Since you site law so much, I would really like your opinions on The People VS Mohammad, but JK Sheinland (something like that). He clearly has an emotionally negative bias in this book, but a hell of a lot of research. Some of his understanding of the Hadith seems stretched, but he's spot on in other ways. That Hadith is a bear, at 4050 pages it is a beast to get through, but much easier than the Quran. Your pragmatic mind always lends pearls of wisdom so I hope you have time to take a look.
(0)
(0)
CPT Jack Durish
CPL(P) (Join to see) - I haven't read the book you've referenced and I'm not sure I'm ready to revisit religion in my studies. I just finished a year of reading all things by and about Churchill and need a break. Some light reading like rereading 1984 and then the new Shaara book
(0)
(0)
Two aspects not taught or understood by many. 1. Know thine enemy 2.
https://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/hijrah.htm
https://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/hijrah.htm
Hijrah: Migration for the Cause of Allah
taken form the book entitled: 'Al Wala' wa'l Bara' Authored by: Muhammad Sa'eed Al Qahtani
(1)
(0)
I tried to read the Koran but the book would put sominex out of business. Then I thought "why bother". A couple of Muslim women were talking about the Koran and why being beaten by their husbands was a sign of love. The husband was only supposed to beat them with a thin tooth pick type switch. Well some Muslim religious leader says they can't really understand it unless they are educated in how to study it. Then I read if you don't read it in Arabic you are missing main points. I do understand it is religious, a bases for government and a "rule" for life. I don't get the female genital mutilation. I don't get the honor killing. I don't get the blowing people up crap. ISIS says the torture, horrific murders and sex slave garbage is all crap Mohammad did. One of the Hadiths talks about how Mohammad raided a Jewish village. Tortured the treasurer of the town to death. Parceled out sex slaves and took a particularly beautiful women he had given to one of his captains as a sex slave from the captain as his own. In this particular story Mohammad offered the Captain young boys in exchange for the women. So maybe ISIS has a point. To me Mohammad was a 7th century war lord who made up crap as he went along! You think Allah would have chosen a literate person as his prophet!
(1)
(0)
Because some can't be bothered to learn about something different. Some that were born here couldn't pass a citizenship test but would tell others to get out of their country. I think the world would be better off without religion. I find the religion morals to be grossly inferior to mine. Children in our country die because their parents would rather pray than seek medical treatment. Religion causes ordinarily good people to say and do disgusting things. But if the only thing keeping some people from doing wicked things is religion I say keep it. As long as my children are not subject to it in school, I'm good. As long as laws aren't put into place based off of religious morals, I'm good.
(1)
(0)
Because until recently there was not a significant population of Islamic folks around in many areas to make it worth anyone's while to spend time reading about folks they probably were unlikely to have interaction with. I would never have read the Quran if I wasn't deploying to war in Iraq, as I didn't need to know or care anything about it.
I took French in school because Quebec was about 30 miles away and we were descended from French speaking Quebecers, French was good to know as it was spoken in and around the area frequently and Spanish was at that time a language that I would not likely have any use for. Now Spanish would be handy.
Folks don't waste time learning about things that will be of little use to them. It's not about ignorance, it's about the value of their time compared to the benefit of learning a subject.
I took French in school because Quebec was about 30 miles away and we were descended from French speaking Quebecers, French was good to know as it was spoken in and around the area frequently and Spanish was at that time a language that I would not likely have any use for. Now Spanish would be handy.
Folks don't waste time learning about things that will be of little use to them. It's not about ignorance, it's about the value of their time compared to the benefit of learning a subject.
(1)
(0)
CPL(P) (Join to see)
CSM, you're an Acadian!? Cool. Anyway, the problem is that it's become a subject forced down kids throats, and should be left to the parents. Just like Adam and Steve books. I appreciate your response.
How much value do you see understanding of Islam and its prescriptions for Dar-al-harb with the currently changing demographic and the current importation of many from over here (east of the USA)?
How much value do you see understanding of Islam and its prescriptions for Dar-al-harb with the currently changing demographic and the current importation of many from over here (east of the USA)?
(0)
(0)
CSM Richard StCyr
SFC Kelly Fuerhoff - I'm being dead serious, there are still parts of the US where folks GAF meter is resting on zero because they don't need to be concerned, until they need to be.
(1)
(0)
CSM Richard StCyr
CPL(P) (Join to see) - I personally think that time would be better spent learning civics and the constitution. Back home there still isn't a large enough population of Spanish speakers above the notch to make it worth the majority of folks learning it. Same with Islam. I would think in areas where folks have taken up residence it would be worth while.
(0)
(0)
CPL(P) (Join to see)
CSM Richard StCyr - It is sad that a legal migrant must know what most do not as far as civics in order to get citizenship. You're correct CSM.
(0)
(0)
Read This Next

Islam
Terrorism
Education
