Posted on Sep 5, 2021
LTC Lars Staack
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Now that a FDA approved COVID vaccine is available, the military meets the requirements set by Doe v Rumsfeld and can lawfully order Servicemembers to receive the vaccination. Because the act of COVID vaccination is so politically charged, there will almost certainly be senior grades who refuse it. Those who have their hands on the pulse of the current command climate: will the military make examples of senior grade NCOs and Officers who refuse to get vaccinated?

The military orders I have read in the press seem to indicate that those who refuse the vaccine will be dealt with administratively. However, I would think that the refusal by a commander would be against the good order of the military and set a bad example. A well publicized court martial would certainly send a message to those seeking a pension.
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Responses: 18
SFC Retention Operations Nco
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It's up to the branch and the commander. Some people received court martial for refusing Anthrax vaccines, most were just separated.

I don't think it's likely that any Senior Leader will receive a court martial. More likely they will receive a General Reprimand, be removed from leadership positions and separated that way with an honorable discharge and their retirement
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LTC Lars Staack
LTC Lars Staack
>1 y
I suspect you are right. At a minimum, I think it likely that those without vaccinations will be considered non-deployable. Most SMs non-deployable are not retained.
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CPT Christopher Stanco
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Should be a choice. Address the prevention with the treatment- not a vax that needs boosters.

Just my humble opinion.
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SGM Jeff Mccloud
SGM Jeff Mccloud
>1 y
PO1 Nick Lingenfelter - Burden of proof is on the accuser.
That's just the way it works.
But if you are curious about the scientific evidence regarding the vaccines' safety and efficacy, there have been plenty of links provided in these threads.
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CPT Christopher Stanco
CPT Christopher Stanco
>1 y
Or seperate.

SFC Kelly Fuerhoff
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MSG Harvey Kane
MSG Harvey Kane
4 y
The minute you enlist your body belongs to Uncle Sam! I think you had best read your oath!
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SPC Dustin Hall
SPC Dustin Hall
4 y
SGM Jeff Mccloud - And you think the Anthrax one was before they gave it to the soldiers back in the mid 90's? It does not matter anyways. You are Property of the US Government. Failure to comply with the order from the DoD is a direct violation of your Oath and a Disobeyment of a Superior Officer. At least they are offering a Honorable Discharge.
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SGT English/Language Arts Teacher
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You make an interesting point about good order and discipline. How did we ever get to a place where an inoculation became so political?
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SGT English/Language Arts Teacher
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1SG Dennis Hicks - We have the vaccine thanks to President Trump and the urgency to find a vaccine. He and his family have been vaccinated since January, and he had COVID. When at a rally in Alabama he urged people to get vaccinated, he was booed. It behooves us to follow real scientific information and not what comes off of media. Tucker Carlson is one such a boob. He spreads misinformation daily, yet he himself is vaccinated. How do I know? You can't work.at FoxNews without a vaccine. It is mandated. Be careful, you may catch BDS. Lol.
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1SG Dennis Hicks
1SG Dennis Hicks
>1 y
SGT (Join to see) - My personal choice is to avoid yet another GOVT vaccination for many reasons, mostly due to the way they force folks to get it, as for BDS the nice thing about it is you get free cream and forget what you just said anyway. :)
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SGT English/Language Arts Teacher
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MSG Harvey Kane
MSG Harvey Kane
4 y
Enlisted got shots, went to okinawa got shots, tdy all over se asia and east asia got shots. I go shots for shots if I complained i was told to write my congresssman!
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Will Senior Leaders Who Refuse COVID Vaccination Receive Court Martial?
SFC Michael Hasbun
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There's no need for guesses or opinions.
AR 600-20, 5-4 (2) specifically outlines what Commanders must do when Soldiers refuse mandatory vaccinations.
Considering that's the topic, everyone should probably read it.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
SFC Michael Hasbun
>1 y
LTC Lars Staack I can only speak to my command, but from the very beginning they were holding town halls and classes concerning COVID and the eventual vaccines. We've been drowning in researched, sourced data presented by our command medical teams.
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LTC Lars Staack
LTC Lars Staack
>1 y
That speaks well for your command. But, there are limits. You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
SFC Michael Hasbun
>1 y
Capt Gregory Prickett Yes, AR stands for Army Regulation... ;o)
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SFC Cryptologic Network Warfare Specialist
SFC (Join to see)
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Capt Gregory Prickett - I may be wrong. While the cited reference was AR, the vaccination mandate came from SecDef. You know that cabinet member that oversees ALL military branches?
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CPL Earl Kochis
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If it was actually a vaccine! It’s not it’s a therapy that hasn’t been tested except on the population that decided that they would be the experiment! Any good lawyer could burn this in court. One it hasn’t been properly tested per federal standards! It’s only been around for 1 yr and has massive side effects!
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LTC Lars Staack
LTC Lars Staack
>1 y
Vaccine hesitancy is a normal reaction to the shortened development timeline. However, it must be noted that they receive the same due diligence during testing as every other vaccine. Statistics kept over many decades show that adverse side effects are identified within six weeks of inoculation for the vast majority of vaccine testing. Millions of people have received it for going on eight months. with very, very few adverse effects; it's one of the safest vaccines ever. The BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine has been approved by the FDA; Moderna will probably follow shortly.

https://pssjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13 [login to see] 1-9
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CPL Earl Kochis
CPL Earl Kochis
>1 y
Except it isn’t a vaccine missing the most important piece of an actual vaccine and that’s the actual virus! In the Immortal words of the Liberal Democrats “Follow the Science” LTC Lars Staack
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LTC Lars Staack
LTC Lars Staack
>1 y
Yes, you are right, the FDA approved Pfizer-BioNTech mRNA vaccine doesn't use live or inactivated viruses. That fact doesn't mean it's not a vaccine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine#Attenuated
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CPL Earl Kochis
CPL Earl Kochis
4 y
Main point “production of antibodies” which is not what it does therefore the science says it’s not a vaccine! You proved my point for me!SFC Kelly Fuerhoff
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Lt Col Aerospace Planner
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I suppose that this was arbitrarily approved, will their be any legal recourse in making us do something that can permanently disable us and ruin the rest of our lives. Fir me I’m a pilot so health is key. There is no data suggesting whether or not this will have long term effects that can end our careers. So, will the VA give a disability if it turns out this was a bad idea for something that is novel and never done before like RNA treatments. I feel like we are being ordered to take a revolver to our head and play Russian roulette. You have to do this, but if it ruins your life, sucks to be you!
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LTC Lars Staack
LTC Lars Staack
>1 y
You raise a good point. When we lined up for anthrax shots, many of us worried that it would bring long-term health consequences, like some newspapers implied. We did it because dying in an Iraqi battlefield seemed more real at the time. And, because we were ordered to. As officers, we had to set an example.

I suspect that General Washington's Soldiers felt the same way when they were ordered to take the rudimentary Smallpox vaccine in 1775. It turns out that there wasn't long-term consequences for that Smallpox vaccine. Or for the Anthrax vaccine. In fact, I challenge you to find a single approved vaccine with common or long-term side effects that were not discovered within 6 weeks of testing.
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SGM Jeff Mccloud
SGM Jeff Mccloud
>1 y
There actually is plenty of data to review regarding the possibility of long term effects
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/safety-of-vaccines.html#:~:text=Serious%20side%20effects%20that%20could,receiving%20a%20vaccine%20dose.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/safety-of-vaccines.html#:~:text=Serious%20side%20effects%20that%20could,receiving%20a%20vaccine%20dose.
https://www.chop.edu/news/long-term-side-effects-covid-19-vaccine
https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19-vaccine-wont-have-long-term-side-effects
https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2021/06/will-kids-have-long-term-effects-covid-19-vaccine

And while the concept of mRNA as a vaccine sounds new to the general population, there is plenty of information on the last 20 years of research and development on mRNA vaccines to review:
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd.2017.243
https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/10/the-story-of-mrna-how-a-once-dismissed-idea-became-a-leading-technology-in-the-covid-vaccine-race/
https://www.uab.edu/news/youcanuse/item/12059-covid-19-mrna-vaccines-how-could-anything-developed-this-quickly-be-safe
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html
https://www.mskcc.org/coronavirus/what-s-different-about-messenger-rna-vaccines-covid-19
https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2021/august/covid19-mrna-vaccine-that-uses-fundamental-penn-technology-receives-fda-approval

As leaders, we owe it to our troops to understand this information and communicate this information to them.
Potentially 7 out of every 1 million vaccinated will experience long term effects.
Unfortunately, we can expect about 15-16 total service members of the 2.2 million total in the active and reserve to experience long term effects from the vaccination. And like any vaccine, those effects will be apparent within 6-8 weeks of the shot.

To apply this to your "Russian roulette" analogy, that would be a revolver with 142,845 empty chambers and one with a round.
But since these same long term effects are much more likely to occur with a COVID infection than from the COVID vaccine, this is what we refer to as accepting "prudent risk".
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Lt Col Aerospace Planner
Lt Col (Join to see)
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LTC Lars Staack How many of them mutate your DNA? As for anthrax that was the biggest scam on us. I learned that Anthrax is not very effective to weaponize in a battlefield environment. It’s not like mustard gas where it can be put in a mortar. Once it dissipates in the air it becomes fairly inert. The only way to use it as a weapon is to unleash it in closed environments which we had not seen a single instance of it in the 20 years in the AOR.
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1SG Signal Support Systems Specialist
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I just hope they are booted swiftly from the military.
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1SG Signal Support Systems Specialist
1SG (Join to see)
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LCpl Benji Smith Your statement is patently false. Please provide a citation for your statement.
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1SG Signal Support Systems Specialist
1SG (Join to see)
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LCpl Benji Smith that the vaccine is untested and unproven. Please provide peer reviewed scientific studies that back your claim.
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1SG Signal Support Systems Specialist
1SG (Join to see)
>1 y
LCpl Benji Smith https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2034577

95% effective. TESTED.

The overwhelming majority of ICU patients and deaths are among the UNVACCINATED.
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SGT Retired
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SMSgt Bob W.
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Wake up people!!! You are NOT Court Martialed for not getting a Vaccination, YOU ARE Court Martialed for not following a direct order.
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SFC S2 Intelligence Ncoic
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Edited >1 y ago
I just use common sense and got vaccinated not just for me, but for my family. We have come a long way scientifically to argue that a vaccine cannot be tested in such a short period. Got mine last January and second dose in February. Not a single side effect. Many, many people are hung up on conspiracies and think we are gonna die sooner than expected or grow antlers. With every new vaccination, there has always been fear mongering. I see it as the government simply has debt that needs to be paid back to Big Pharma and nothing more when it comes to the rush for people getting the shot. Now that Pfizer has been officially approved, there is no doubt in my mind, that if a service member refuses to receive it unless they have a TRUE reason, there will be consequences.
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SFC S2 Intelligence Ncoic
SFC (Join to see)
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Typing from my Android. Sorry for the typos.
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SFC S2 Intelligence Ncoic
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Unless they have a true reason, I meant.
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SPC Nancy Greene
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You pose an extremely good question LTC Lars Staack! I know I had no choices when it came to what ‘shots’ the Army gave me.
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LTC Lars Staack
LTC Lars Staack
>1 y
You are certainly right. Old timers remember the Anthrax shots for Dessert Shield. They were controversial and caused a lot of apprehension on top of prepping for mob. Most Soldiers did their duty and didn't experience long-term side effects.
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SPC Nancy Greene
SPC Nancy Greene
>1 y
LTC Lars Staack I’m a Cold War Veteran and the second set of shots I was given before my PCS to Germany made me sick! LTC Lars Staack
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