Posted on May 1, 2016
Women in Ranger school: who is willing to look their daughter in the eyes and tell them they can't be what they want?
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I personally have three daughters, no sons, and if they ever decided to join the greatest fighting force on earth I would stand beside them.... I don't know what I would do if I had to explain to them why they couldn't fight for "daddy's flag" the way they wanted to.
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Ranger
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Ranger Women in the Military
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 26
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MSG Michael Shannon The issue is meeting the standards without any degradation because of gender/sex. While there certainly are some women who can meet the standards, the fact is that the vast majority do not. As a result, our liberal PC government will lower the standards for females (or for all,l so as not to appear to be favoring females) just to meet some social engineering objective, despite the impact on the ability to accomplish the mission.
What do you tell your daughters? Tell them the facts of life and that, despite what liberal/progressives want people to believe, there are two sexes... male and female ... and that is just a fact of life. Biology, physiology, psychology, sociology, etc. all play into what men and women can do. Is it fair? Maybe not, but it is life. There are many things they can do to "fight for daddy's flag", to include going to Ranger School. I would not be very proud of them if they had to have special privileges or reduced standards to achieve what they wanted to.
What do you tell your daughters? Tell them the facts of life and that, despite what liberal/progressives want people to believe, there are two sexes... male and female ... and that is just a fact of life. Biology, physiology, psychology, sociology, etc. all play into what men and women can do. Is it fair? Maybe not, but it is life. There are many things they can do to "fight for daddy's flag", to include going to Ranger School. I would not be very proud of them if they had to have special privileges or reduced standards to achieve what they wanted to.
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MCPO Katrina Hutcherson
COL Jean (John) F. B. - with all due respect sir, they thought black soldiers should stick to logistics and the galley. The navy thought blacks and Philippino's were only fit to serve the officers their meals and clean their rooms. Dorie Miller proved them wrong, the Tuskeegee airmen proved them wrong and the all volunteer Japanese who's families were in internment camps proved them wrong. I don't see women failing if given a fair chance instead of having to listen to the naysayers who are sure they will fail.
Everything we already know about women in combat is an indicator that they can enhance the mission and though there may not large numbers of woman who can qualify the ones who can should be accepted. A paradigm shift might bring more women forward who were raised to believe they weren't as capable as men but then they look around and know that's not true!
Everything we already know about women in combat is an indicator that they can enhance the mission and though there may not large numbers of woman who can qualify the ones who can should be accepted. A paradigm shift might bring more women forward who were raised to believe they weren't as capable as men but then they look around and know that's not true!
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COL Jean (John) F. B.
MCPO Katrina Hutcherson - I don't disagree that there are women who could meet the standards required of the various positions they are (or were) excluded from; just like there are men who could not meet them. The only issue I have is that it has not been shown (by experience) that having females in combat arms units for extended times will not adversely impact the mission/readiness/effectiveness of those units. To require it simply to meet some liberal social-engineering objective, without regard to the impact on the mission is ludicrous.
Your comparison of this issue with Blacks and Filipinos is off base, as those were racial issues, whereas this issue has to do with the physiological differences between men and women, not the color of their skin, as well as the natural interaction between men and women.
What should take place is a long-term study of units that have women assigned to determine the impact, before enacting a military-wide policy to do something that has not been proven to be counter-productive to readiness and mission accomplishment.
The other issue I have with it is that, if women want to be "equal", so be it. Let them be equal in all aspects. Have them subject to the draft and the requirement to serve as Infantry, if the need arises, whether they want to or not. Require the PT standards to be the same. Do not give them gender-based benefits not given to men. I personally think that there should be differences in female/male PT standards, due to physiology. I think that women should be given special benefits/consideration due to their sex (like maternity leave and some "slack", at times, due to their periods, etc.). Why do I feel that way? Because I recognize there is a difference between men and women. It is simply a fact. For the same reasons, I see nothing wrong with excluding women from certain things that men are allowed to do.
With all due respect to you and the experiences you describe, whether you realize it or not, your presence made a difference in your unit. Nobody forgot you were female, despite your effort to be "one of the boys". Trust me, I have been there. I have commanded units with females. While they were outstanding in every respect and we tried hard to not allow them to impact operations, training, etc., the fact is that they always had to be considered when plans were made. They did not demand it, but it had to be done nonetheless. It is simply ludicrous to think that women in such units have no impact. The question is how much... That certainly depends on the women, the unit, the mission, the circumstances, etc.
My sister visited me from Denver this weekend. She served as an Air Force Flight Nurse and was one of the first women to undergo astronaut training and several other previuously "male-only" training courses. She is very vocal about females in the military but she also has reservations about total integration of females in such things as the combat arms. We discussed this issue at length during her visit.
Don't get me wrong, I fully support females in the military and have been fortuinate to have worked with a great many. I am just not totally on-board with "total integration" without the requisite studes that show it will not have an adverse impact.
Your comparison of this issue with Blacks and Filipinos is off base, as those were racial issues, whereas this issue has to do with the physiological differences between men and women, not the color of their skin, as well as the natural interaction between men and women.
What should take place is a long-term study of units that have women assigned to determine the impact, before enacting a military-wide policy to do something that has not been proven to be counter-productive to readiness and mission accomplishment.
The other issue I have with it is that, if women want to be "equal", so be it. Let them be equal in all aspects. Have them subject to the draft and the requirement to serve as Infantry, if the need arises, whether they want to or not. Require the PT standards to be the same. Do not give them gender-based benefits not given to men. I personally think that there should be differences in female/male PT standards, due to physiology. I think that women should be given special benefits/consideration due to their sex (like maternity leave and some "slack", at times, due to their periods, etc.). Why do I feel that way? Because I recognize there is a difference between men and women. It is simply a fact. For the same reasons, I see nothing wrong with excluding women from certain things that men are allowed to do.
With all due respect to you and the experiences you describe, whether you realize it or not, your presence made a difference in your unit. Nobody forgot you were female, despite your effort to be "one of the boys". Trust me, I have been there. I have commanded units with females. While they were outstanding in every respect and we tried hard to not allow them to impact operations, training, etc., the fact is that they always had to be considered when plans were made. They did not demand it, but it had to be done nonetheless. It is simply ludicrous to think that women in such units have no impact. The question is how much... That certainly depends on the women, the unit, the mission, the circumstances, etc.
My sister visited me from Denver this weekend. She served as an Air Force Flight Nurse and was one of the first women to undergo astronaut training and several other previuously "male-only" training courses. She is very vocal about females in the military but she also has reservations about total integration of females in such things as the combat arms. We discussed this issue at length during her visit.
Don't get me wrong, I fully support females in the military and have been fortuinate to have worked with a great many. I am just not totally on-board with "total integration" without the requisite studes that show it will not have an adverse impact.
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MCPO Katrina Hutcherson
[~331654:COL Jean (John) F. sir, we are in basic agreement, and as I said in an earlier post, I'm glad the Armed Services Commiitte passed a bill to include women in the draft. I think you will be presently surprised as the military continues to break down barriers that most in the military at the time argued vehemently against with the same argument about unit cohesiveness and inability of the group in question to meet requirements. If it is a failure, it can also be reversed and I'll apologize for being overconfident.
As far as me having an impact on the unit I'm fairly certain that I was a positive impact for both my superiors and subordinates. I had been a Chief Radioman and a Cheif Maritime Enforcement Specialist. The only negative impact was when the powers that be tried to make accommodations for us. There is a certain type of woman (strong, independent, confident, adventurous, often athletic and driven to excel) that just have the same obligation to defend their country. I would think that type of woman would definitely be an asset in gorilla warfare both abroad and should we ever suffer a war on our soil.
As far as me having an impact on the unit I'm fairly certain that I was a positive impact for both my superiors and subordinates. I had been a Chief Radioman and a Cheif Maritime Enforcement Specialist. The only negative impact was when the powers that be tried to make accommodations for us. There is a certain type of woman (strong, independent, confident, adventurous, often athletic and driven to excel) that just have the same obligation to defend their country. I would think that type of woman would definitely be an asset in gorilla warfare both abroad and should we ever suffer a war on our soil.
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COL Jean (John) F. B.
MCPO Katrina Hutcherson - I certainly did not mean to imply that you did not have a positive impact on your unit, as I am sure you did. My point is that, whether you knew it or not, your presence did have an impact. Things were done differently, things that might have been said and done were not, and on and on. Did they have an adverse impact? Probably not, but it did have an impact.
Again, I have a lot of personal experience in this area and have been blessed to have outstanding females, like you, in my units. It simply does impact how things are done. That impact may be magnified if women are subjected to long-term conditions experienced by combat arms units in the field. It is just biology and physiology.. as well as the natural male/female interactions. I just think it requires much more study before making a decision that possibly impact mission accomplishment.
Again, I have a lot of personal experience in this area and have been blessed to have outstanding females, like you, in my units. It simply does impact how things are done. That impact may be magnified if women are subjected to long-term conditions experienced by combat arms units in the field. It is just biology and physiology.. as well as the natural male/female interactions. I just think it requires much more study before making a decision that possibly impact mission accomplishment.
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Telling a woman that they can't do something is like writing your own death warrent.
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COL Jean (John) F. B.
SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth - "One team, one fight" Active Army, Army Reserve, Army National Guard ... We are all brothers in arms and I am proud to call you brother.
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SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth
COL Jean (John) F. B. - My wife gave two thumbs up on your mother, and commented that she must be a great lady.
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1 Daughter 3 Granddaughters, I'm along for the Ride. If you want to take on a Challenge I will support you. I might Grimace and Peak thru my Fingers as I cover my eyes watching what you do. My Daughter and Granddaughters are Daredevils and I just shake my head at their antics but I realize the same was probably true about how my Shipmates saw me when I would shimmy up the Mast like a Monkey. Guess it is just Genetics.
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SPC Michael Williams
Our theirs lol. My daughter would then proceed to do it or die trying. Sorry was meant as a reply to the Sgts post above. Definitely need more coffee this morning!
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