Posted on Dec 28, 2013
Worst Feeling? Explaining to a Soldier why the COC felt the need to deny their award.
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I was reading through a few other awards threads on here, and it got me thinking about all the awards I've submitted Soldier's for that have either been lost by S-1 shops, denied due to "insufficient rank" or the quota system.<div><br></div><div>I can't help but feel that, regardless of the reason, that Soldier, deep down, just got a little bit more bitter and resentful towards the military, and that always breaks my heart slightly...</div><div><br></div><div>What do you guys tell yourselves in these situations? How do you rationalize this, or try to take away some of the sting when a deserving Soldier will not be receiving an award for reasons you can't enthusiastically explain?</div><div> </div><div>UPDATE</div><div> </div><div>Also, a follow up question would be: "what would be an ideal awards processing system to you?". What would implementation look like?</div>
Awards
Army
Mentorship
Motivation
AR 600-8-22
Edited 12 y ago
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 78
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I can't help but wonder where this quota nonsense came from... It's not like we are suffering from a metal shortage in this country.
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SFC Mark Merino
I believe the bloodline from the original defender of the badge/award was never severed and the cycle continues.
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I think that it is important to sit that Soldier down and explain to him/her exactly what happened, much like SFC Swartz explained. I believe one way to curb that bitterness is for that Soldier to totally understand the awards process and to understand that decisions are made throughout that awards process. I believe that it is important that Soldiers and NCOs understand the nuances of the awards process to that they may become more well-rounded leaders and then they will be more equipped to answer those questions when approached by their Soldiers...
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SFC Michael Hasbun
It isn't so much the award process that's the issue, but people misusing or abusing it..
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SPC Andrew Craig
i believe you have the best answer here as not only does the soldier go away knowing you did your best but also having a better understanding of how the system works.
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SGT Patrick Wells
I agree 1SG
I was put in for a couple of awards I knew nothing about. I was presented 2 Certificates of awards at formation one day. My CO. surprised me with a visit when I had gotten to my duty station. He explained that I had been put in for a couple of awards ( after almost 40 years I honestly do not remember what they were). What I do remember is his taking time to come to me and explain about the process and that they had been rejected by higher-ups because of my MOS. He seemed upset about it. Awards never meant much to me. Still don't. I ended up ETSing with a handful of certificates and a good conduct medal.
I was put in for a couple of awards I knew nothing about. I was presented 2 Certificates of awards at formation one day. My CO. surprised me with a visit when I had gotten to my duty station. He explained that I had been put in for a couple of awards ( after almost 40 years I honestly do not remember what they were). What I do remember is his taking time to come to me and explain about the process and that they had been rejected by higher-ups because of my MOS. He seemed upset about it. Awards never meant much to me. Still don't. I ended up ETSing with a handful of certificates and a good conduct medal.
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I believe that as a leader if you set goals for your Soldiers and tell them BLUF what is expected of them and include the part about receiving awards, I think that they will be more receptive and understand when that day arrives (ie; PCS, ETS.....)
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CSM Mike Maynard
It's hard to have one standard when every Bn Cdr in the Army is the approval authority for AAMs and every Bde Cdr in th eArmy is the approval authority for ARCOMs. Each Bde/Bn Cmd Tm has their own awards philosophy and it will be impossible to standardize across the Army.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
But the Army CAN set left and right limits for how far from center those philosophies can sway..
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CSM Mike Maynard
And they have already - it's contained in the AR 600-8-22.
What else would you propose that we insert in the regulation that would still be "guidance" and not infringe upon the command?
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SSG (Join to see)
The regulation is what it is. It is up to the Commander overall, but with the guidance from his command team and staff to come up with the common denominator and put it out to not just the commanders of these young Soldiers, but go over it with them and explain to them how the process works. I strongly believe that an informed Soldier is a more educated and understanding Soldier. I have been in for a long time (28 years total, reserve and active duty) and I have seen the military change more so the Army in those years. We have to try our best to get out of the mindset that Soldiers don't need to know everything because they are getting smarter and not only that many of them are coming in with degrees or completing degrees while on active duty. Example, I teach Resiliency to in-processing Soldiers and one group in particular. I had a group of 10 Soldiers, 3 with Masters degrees, 7 with Bachelors degrees, 7 with Associates, and 2 starting college. That in itself is amazing and uncommon.
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I had a young SGT who was one heck of an NCO and analyst. She was PCS'ing and I put her in for an ARCOM, which I felt she fully deserved. The 368 came back from the BN CDR who told me to rewrite it as an AAM because she was an E-5. I refused and then was told if I didn't, the NCO would not receive an award.
As an E-6 and E-7 I mostly served in E-8 and E-9 positions. I served as the Task Force Sergeant Major on a 6-month deployment in Iraq where we conducted an OPEVAL for the first successful IED defeat persistent aerial surveillance platform. My Task Force CDR was a COL at the time I submitted my packet and submitted a 368 for a Legion of Merit for my retirement award. It was downgraded to an MSM because I was an E-7.
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1SG Michael Blount
SSG Hasburn - I would go one further than CSM Maynard. Not only am I not competing against my subordinates, I WANT them to succeed. I WANT them to get the recognition they've earned. Their doing well is a partial reflection on me, so I'd WANT them to get what they deserve.
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1SG Michael Blount
SSG Hasburn - in the Old School, teachers wanted their students to do better than they. Call it level headed, whatever, that's the way it is with me. Ask any of my Soldiers. Does the Army need more people like me? No. They need more Soldiers like you asking the tough questions everyone avoids
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CSM (Join to see)
SSG Hasburn, in my experience I have had to deal with the dilemma of recommendations to the CDR for over 10 years. I have been in units that I have struggled as the SR NCO to get awards written for achievement and service. As the SR NCO for a CMD you provide a recommendation to the CDR, based on your knowledge, experience, and regulations. Each award is earned based on the level of responsibility and or achievement. Many times as SR NCOs we have to send these awards back to be written correctly and ask the recommender to define the achievements clearly that warrant the appropriate award. I have had to recommend downgrade many times, because the award just is not justified as written. I have also had to talk with subordinate CMD TMs at times when they request coins, AAMs, and ARCOMS for nearly 75% of their formation, just because they participated in a 10 day FTX. There is a balance and as you increase in positions and rank in the service, you will become the person who has to help make the recommendations on awards without having any emotions or prejudice to the CDR.
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SFC Gary Fox
I have a question for you CSM Thomas R. You refer to sending recommendations back because they were not well written and didn't justify the award. How about those that are well written and do justify an award for SGT, SSG, or SFC to receive an MSM? If your Commander is of the mindset only E-8's and above will receive MSMs, are you going to fight for that SGT, SSG, or SFC to receive that award or are you just going to accept that's the way it is in that command and do nothing to try to change it?
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I served in Iraq in 2004-2005. Me and another soldier was wounded while there by a rocket, took our 15 day leave and come back to country and finished out the tour. The other soldier, who was hurt worse than I was still soldiered on and had a medic come by each night to change a pack dressing. Still, we got up every day and went out and completed countless missions around the Baghdad AO. We were both SGT/E-5's and put in for Bronze Stars for meritorious service. Both were signed off all the way up the chain until it got to the CG, who just wrote denied in the box for both and downgraded each to an ARCOM. When it was explained to us why, it was because "Our unit had to many BS awards". Well, our unit was also involved in about everything during that rotation. Had a SSG acquaintance of mine who was put in Division HQ to read the weather forecast to all who wanted it over the radio for the entire time he was there and he was awarded the BS. He was put there cause he was incapable of doing his job in the first place for being a SH*T BAG and the higher chain of command wouldn't chapter him out prior to deployment. Its all political and rank based.
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MAJ (Join to see)
<p>SSG Hasbun,</p><p>The quota system has been around for decades. During WWII LTC Winters was told he could not be given a MoH for his actions shortly after D-Day because they were only allowing so many per unit and his had already exceeded the number. </p><p>As the older generation is the approving authorities they remember how much harder it was when "they were in it" and go into award defending mode. It is funny but when you look at the other wars and compare to what we have given out in Iraq/Afghanistan we are giving out far fewer awards overall. </p><p><br></p><p><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size: 11pt; mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family: Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;'><font color="#000000">https://www.hrc.army.mil/TAGD/Awards%20and%20Decorations%20Statistics%20by%20Conflict</font></span></p>
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SFC Michael Hasbun
I know it's an old thing, I'm just curious who decided it would be a good idea to say " only X amount of my personnel are worthy of recognition per month"...
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SSG Jonathan Flynn
Had the same thing happen in '05 Iraq. BS made it all the way to division, then downgraded to ARCOM. Was a SSG running training for an Iraqi company when that was a side bar and not a main mission.
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I've dealt with this myself when I was a SSG. Recommended for a MSM for PCS. After 14yrs, 7 deployments, 5 years being rated as a SFC. Was simple when made to division it was in writing why is a SSG being put in for a MSM. I kinda lost faith a little. Even though all my NCOER was great. Pcs NCOER was even 4 excellence and 1/1.
Then watched as a couple soldiers pcs'd and for hard work they got aam. I told them same happened to me and no matter what don't let it get them down.
Fast Forward im in TRADOC now and I've seen other SFC get their MSM denied. There was no doubt they deserved it either. Politics in awards sucks. But its something we live with.
Then watched as a couple soldiers pcs'd and for hard work they got aam. I told them same happened to me and no matter what don't let it get them down.
Fast Forward im in TRADOC now and I've seen other SFC get their MSM denied. There was no doubt they deserved it either. Politics in awards sucks. But its something we live with.
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CSM Mike Maynard
I agree, I was a Senior NCO for an Advisor Tm with a Navy ISC (E7) on my team in Iraq. <div><br></div><div>We submitted him for a BSM. It was approved through Army channels, but then had to be endorsed by the theater Navy folks - denied. Sad. He deserved it.</div><div><br></div>
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SFC (Join to see)
I received a BSM on my last deployment to Iraq where I was a PLT SGT/Team Chief as a SSG. I didn't just have my maintenance team under me. I was also in charge f all attachments from my FSC to our support company. I know others who were denied the same award and they out ranked me. The same person who approved my BSM denied my MSM.
It sucks but it happens. Sometime its a kick in the nut. But I know the work I did. I also know the work my soldiers did that they was recommended for ARCOM's and they got most the time. Its the ones that don't get that you have to explain. Which I have no issue with. I would take a AAM or no award all day if my soldiers got their deserved award.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
CPO Izdepski, rest assured, I am aware as I type in this thread that despite our awards shortcomings, we here in the Army are still fortunate in that we will review triple theawards our sister service counterparts will.. Allvthings considered, we are still very fortunate.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
CPO Izdepski, rest assured, I am aware as I type in this thread that despite our awards shortcomings, we here in the Army are still fortunate in that we will receive triple the awards our sister service counterparts will.. All things considered, we are still very fortunate.
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I agree with you Battle! I know that we should not come to work and do our job to get a certain award, but I do feel that an award is the least we can do for our Soldiers who make our job easier and who by the way is the reason why we even have a job as leaders. I try to let my Soldiers know that when we do our job and do it at 100%, people outside looking in will notice. For those who don't care and do not notice, shame on them.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
When people are as devoted to mission and unit as we tend to be, it's hard not to feel slighted when that unit doesn't love back..
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I never got an explanation fully on my last deployment and frankly it hurt my feelings for lack of a better word.
Basic situation: I got a 1/1 fully justified NCOER with great bullets and constant great comments from my BN leadership as a SFC in a 1SG position. Company did great things.
I was given an ARCOM (the only 1SG to receive an ARCOM) because the BDE CDR saw me in the FOB gym what he considered too much. Yet my company was still one of the best companies around for responsiveness etc (in other words not dropping tasks etc).
Yet when he denied it didn't or refused to tell me why. It wasn't until I found out later why.
In the end I still left the position with the best NCOERs of my career and my mentor, my BN CSM, was very happy with my work and that's all that mattered.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SFC Jones - odd, AAMs were authorized for those whose accomplishments weren't "Combat related", while ARCOMs were for those whose accomplishments were "Combat related".
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CW2 (Join to see)
Definitely weird. I don't even know how they got away with it. But same thing with my last deployment. They just worded my defense meritorious service medal to be non combat related basically. But their AAMs stated specifically for combat. Who knows.
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SSG (Join to see)
NCO'S the units have messed with awards so long now the bureaucracy runs rampid. My units previous did the same thing awarding AAM's to Soldiers while in deployment. The regs dont matter it is the stripes and leadership that do. Not everyone deserves an Award for deploying the reward is deploying and doing something to improve the area/personnel we are responsible for.
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<p>I actually have dealt with through many deployments over the years, and was completely honest with the Soldier (s), I would tell them that due to unwritten rules within the higher echelons, that many of the awards were either disapproved or downgraded because of the politics, which we have all seen and experienced. Most were disappointed, but they understood and felt better because I didn't BS them about it and also relieved them of the responsibility that it wasn't their fault or due to anything they had done.</p><p><br></p><p>Being straightforward and honest with your Soldiers has always been my policy and it has always worked for me with my Soldiers, my peers and seniors not always.</p><p><br></p><p>I have had 1SGs/CSMs and Officers give me an earful saying I can't tell Soldiers this or that on many situations and issues, but I always counteract it by saying if it was me I would want the truth, isn't that part of integrity and wouldn't you want the same, and they usually can't respond after that, I have been doing that from CPL on up.</p>
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SFC Michael Hasbun
I have the same policy concerning being honest about the situation... I just wish there were better reasons to give them other than politics and the fact that, to the command, due to their ranks, they are viewed as simply less important, less worthy. I would never say it like that, but it would be hard to come to any other conclusion from their viewpoint...
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CSM Mike Maynard
I'm all for telling Soldiers the truth as long as it's not going down the path of insubordination and disloyalty.
As far as awards, if "policies" or "politics" or "quotas" are being used to determine who gets what award instead of scope/merit, then the Cmd has it wrong and the reason they are upset is that they are embarrassed for doing the wrong thing.
When I review awards, I write specifically why I am recommending approval, downgrade or disapproval. Most of the time it is due to a lack of justification - basically, the recommender's poor ability to capture accomplishments and the impact of that person's service.
After final submission, I have no issue with the the chain informing the Soldier the reason that I recommended what I did. I believe in complete transparency and I think that builds trust and removes the perception of unfairness.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
I'd say that's a great policy CSM.. Even hearing "needs a better write up " is still far better than "sorry, wrong rank".
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CW3 (Join to see)
That is a great policy. Too many times, leaders that are higher up the chain have a 100% "because I said so" mentality, and that does nothing to develop junior leaders. Well done, CSM.
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Let it go. Don't get wound up by things you can't control. You can only worry about the things that you can control, but be smart enough to realize you control damn little. Things are going to happen in your life, good and bad that you can't control. I've had 2 BSM downgraded and an Air Medal denied. That is life. Move on. Whenever I have submitted awards for subordinates, I never told them until the day they would receive it.
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