Posted on Sep 13, 2016
LTJG Ansi Officer
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If a fresh 2LT/ENS ordered an E9 to attention because of a disagreement, would the E9 have to comply? What would possibly happen?
Posted in these groups: Army2lt 2LTSgm SGMArmy usa or 09b.svg CSM
Edited 9 y ago
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Responses: 606
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CSM Andrew Perrault
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Edited 9 y ago
As the battalion CSM every soldier enlisted or officer that was assigned to the battalion came into my office for a talk, there was no doubt when they left who was there to help them. Had many officers seek out my advice. Never had issues with officers. Part of the BN Cdr's brief to newly assigned officers was if the CSM suggests you do whatever consider it came from me. If a LT called me to attention I would comply, but we would be having a one on one talk shortly after.
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SGM Operations Ncoic
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Yes of course that E9 would comply. however that incident would be closely followed by a visit to their commander. You always have to remember that E9's work for 06 and above That Lieutenant will learn very quickly the error of their ways. And that would be from their own command
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MAJ Field Technician
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Yes he would, yes the ass chewing would be epic. but it would be memorable.
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SGM Ada Enlisted Branch Sgm
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The closest I have seen to this is as a young Infantry CPL a 2LT rapped me on the head for looking drowsy during combat lifesaver course. Immediately he was whisked into the hallway by my SFC PLT SGT and standing at Parade Rest while my PLT SGT invited him to come and talk to the CSM and LTC if he had a doubt where he stood in relation to the rating chain and Soldier welfare.
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CPT Ahmed Faried
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Context needed but you don't get to E9 being a shit bag so I'm sure said E9 will comply but I bet a month's pay the E9 knows an O5 or O6. Checkmate.
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LTJG Ansi Officer
LTJG (Join to see)
9 y
Amen.
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1SG Al Brown
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I've never met an E9 that would allow that situation to occur. I have seen a lot of Officer / NCO dust-ups, but not that far apart in experience. Most were just typical disagreements where the frag was displayed, but the pin wasn't pulled.
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SFC Pete Kain
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Yes, though not more than once by the same LT. lol
As an E-7 , I went thru similar situations, The 2lt always lost afterwards. Upper classman at where ever just does not work in real life.
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SFC George Smith
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unfortunately yes... but i would not want to that shaved tail " Lt." when The Bn Commander gets through with him...
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SN Greg Wright
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Of course. Lawful order. You can be sure though that there will be future conversations from both that e-9 and the o-1's superiors.
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SMSgt Matthew Hoyer
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I've seen that try to happen. The E-9 smiled and put his arm around the O-1s shoulders and they walked off to his office. A very sheepish looking O-1 came out after about 30 minutes. No yelling happened, but none really needed to. Not saying it's right or wrong, good or bad, just what I saw.
That aside, the O-1 would lose the ability to lead pretty much everyone who saw that take place, whether the E-9 went to attention or not; that's a total dick move.
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SGM Chief Executive Officer (Ceo)
SGM (Join to see)
9 y
One thing I learned as a 1SG was I didn't have to yell at people to get my point across and for people to pay attention to me. Sometimes a whisper spoke even louder than a yell. By the time I made SGM, my 1SGs and especially my BN XO were always surprised at how calm I remained at bad news, and how I never raised my voice. I told them getting all in an uproar and yelling and screaming didn't do anyone any good. It was better to just take the information, figure out how to deal with it, and march on. It was also very valuable in counseling troops who were in trouble over something. They were always taken aback by my calmness and helpful attitude about the issue. They'd already been chewed out up and down the chain, so here I was just acknowledging the issue but trying to help them figure out how we were going to deal with it, and they were just surprised. It almost always led to them deciding to do what we'd planned on pushing them to do in the last case anyway. Always better when they decide the outcome instead of having us force it on them.
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MAJ Jeffrey Frankart
MAJ Jeffrey Frankart
9 y
SGM (Join to see) I love that approach. I can only imagine it is effective. I will tuck that way and try to use it.
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PO1 Robert George
PO1 Robert George
>1 y
my lads knew the quieter i spoke the deeper the s**t they were standing in.
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SSG Environmental Specialist
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Edited 9 y ago
I had a young LT in Afghanistan get stopped by a CSM asking him where is protective eye wear was, LT informed the CSM he did not wear them, and started on his way, unfortunately for LT the CSM was traveling with a LTC who came around the corner and told LT that he needed to unf**k himself right away and get some eye protection. When the LT came into my office and told me to make sure he was unf**k in the morning because he did not want another run it with the CSM.
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SSG Platoon Sergeant
SSG (Join to see)
9 y
The LT asked *you* to make sure *he* was unfucked going forward? Am I reading that correctly? =\
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LTJG Ansi Officer
LTJG (Join to see)
9 y
"SSG, please ensure I am always unf**ked when I leave the office." ;) Classic.
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SSG Environmental Specialist
SSG (Join to see)
9 y
That was correct, we usually ate breakfast together every morning and walked down to the office which was in what they called the deep south at Khandahar, so I point out any deficiencies before we walked thru that CSM AO again. The LT was really a good and smart guy, but it was his first time out of country.
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CPO Bill Penrod
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Never in counter that situation. My officers were trained properly. Most would say " As you were......."
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SCPO Kenneth Myers
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I would at the time if young troops were around. But behind closed doors that O1 would get slaughtered.
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SGM Riki Hawk
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Yes. Does it happen? There are many variables to ensure it does not happen. But every good leader is a good follower. One thing I've done since I was a SGT was developed a relationship with my LT. They were a part of our team and he/she was our leader. They established trust and respect for me and my work, and confided in me as appropriate regarding military issues. Moving forward as a PSG/ 1SG, I did the same thing and met with my LTs. They obviously respected my rank and after time, the intent was to respect me as a person and vice versa. I mentored them because I knew I somehow had a role molding this young officer. I wanted them to succeed because I wanted all my Soldiers to succeed. I was only "locked up" once in my military career as a foolish SPC. But other then that- it won't happen. I know my role and a as a leader, we also have to follow giving mentorship and praise both publicly and in private. Hooah!
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LTC Carlos Llarena
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If he is a professional, he will. I recall as a young lieutenant getting a ration of you know what from a CW4. I respectfully reminded him that my commission was signed by the POTUS and that his was signed by the Sec Army. I further told him that as a novice, all helpful advice is welcome but that our individual positions in the military hierarchy must be respected, recognized and for the sake of unit cohesion, must be shared with those in lower grades than ours. To his credit he said, Well said. I think we can work together. We became very close and he taught me a ton. He and my first assignment 1st Sgt guided me through a lot. I remember when I was commissioned and went to my first posting. Arrived on a Friday and the CO told me to get squared away and meet on the parade field the next day. At the parade field, he introduced me to my platoon SGT, a ton of rows of ribbons with a blue one with five stars on top. He saluted me and said, "Lead me sir". I said, "SGT, Your job is to stay one step to my left and one step to my rear. When you see me doing something wrong or stupid, yell GAS. He leaned over and said, "Sir, we's gonna get along just fine. He was the best thing that happened to me. He taught me so much while staying in the background with off line discussions afterward. I was so lucky.
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MSgt Al Schrantz
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Would of come to attention, not because the youngster had earned the respect, but the rank earned it. Than after the Lt was done talking would either let him have it in the traditional military style either on the spot, or if others were present in private. Senior NCO' s have long learned how to correct and direct a junior offices without disgracing either themselves or the officer.
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SN Cody Elkins
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When I was in the navy, around 2012, I read a masting report where a Master Chief got masted (NJP) for insubordination, and Article 92. This happened at NNTPC when I was a booster with recruities. He didn't salute an Ensign and got told to halt and ordered to salute. He then said he had more respect for his pen before ignoring the order to salute. I forget if it was public or not, but Cpt Faus was very mast happy.
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LTC Gary Roberts
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Let's get real! There are going to be rare occasions where it is both right and proper for a Second Lieutenant to order an E9 to attention. All this posturing about boys and youth directly detracts from the chain of command. When I was a Lieutenant I assumed complete responsibility for every order I ever gave, even those that resulted in the loss of my soldiers in combat. So if I jacked you up, then you deserved it, and I'd accept the consequences. This glorification of E9's on RallyPoint is great respect, until you realize a certain percentage don't deserve it. Google "Sergeant Major" and "criminal charges" and read and weep. You will find Command Sergeants Major of the Army in your results, along with the actual clown in Generation Kill who went to jail for child abuse. My apologies to the good Sergeants Major I served with, but to the man, they'd respect the Lieutenant. Besides, this ordering to attention is pretty damn rare. Treat the chain of command (up and down) with respect and you'll do well. I can't remember ever needing to jack a soldier to attention.
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1SG Charles Simpson
1SG Charles Simpson
>1 y
I accumulated 28 tactical years under my belt before I retired and I never witnessed the conduct being described in some of these posts. I was a professional soldier, surrounded by professional soldiers and there was no disrespect allowed because we all depended on each other to stay alive. We were not always formal because the starch had to be left in garrison when you went through the wire. The rank of your team leader could be E-6 or could be O-6, depending on what the treat of the day was going to be. When we were on parade, it was straight out of the book. Professionalism!
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CPO Robrandt-Paul Sy Go
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As the official hierarchy dictates, and in the presence of junior personnel, yes, as to avoid the perception of undermining appointed authority. But once the kiddies have dispersed, stand by for heavy rolls, Ensign!
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LTJG Ansi Officer
LTJG (Join to see)
9 y
Hoo-freaking-yah. Never go toe to toe with the Chief's Mess.
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CPO Robrandt-Paul Sy Go
CPO Robrandt-Paul Sy Go
9 y
Especially with a Master Chief...good luck with that. Hahaha
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SFC Paul Olsen
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My favorite story regarding this situation goes like this...

When I was a young Specialist in Germany in the early 90's I was serving On Staff duty one day. I was out in front of the building taking a smoke break and our very grizzled but soldier friendly CSM joined me to smoke and chat as he usually did with other soldiers. I noticed a an angry young LT approaching from behind the CSM and he started yelling at us about smoking and BSing in front of HQS and demanded we drop and push. I looked at the CSM who half sneered and half smiled, kept his cigarette tight in in his mouth and dropped and started pushing. Of course I crushed out mine and pushed too. The LT continued to yell and scream at the CSM because he was still smoking while getting smoked (of course the LT thought he was barking at just another soldier). Then the CSM slowly rose, turned to look at the LT and blew a huge cloud of smoke into is wide eyed and terrified face. The CSM flung his cigarette on the ground and said that he had and appointment with the Colonel. He turned, went up the steps and gently beckoned me with him as he went into HQS. I quickly returned to the duty desk, but not two minutes later, the Colonel came storming out of his office, and ran out the door. I'm not sure what went down but all I know is that when I made my way to how that evening, I saw that LT standing at attention at the flagpole with a stack of FM's in one hand.

It doesn't pay to piss off the CSM and the commander's best friend.
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