Posted on Sep 13, 2016
LTJG Ansi Officer
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If a fresh 2LT/ENS ordered an E9 to attention because of a disagreement, would the E9 have to comply? What would possibly happen?
Posted in these groups: Army2lt 2LTSgm SGMArmy usa or 09b.svg CSM
Edited 9 y ago
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MSgt Christopher Schoen
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Edited 9 y ago
O-1 vs E-9? If an E-9 "allows" this to happen then there is a reason and good luck to that 0-1...the nuclear fallout will be painful. But, for the most part, by law, yes. Advisable? No. I think I would rather pour cayenne pepper in my eyes than jacking up an E-9 in front of everyone.
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SFC Bruce Pettengill
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As an MP in the Army and lower enlisted soldier, we had a saying do not confuse your rank with my authority. A CSM is assigned at a minimum of a Battalion level, An 01 the maximum would be a Platoon Leader. I can't imagine the circumstances where an 01 would be in a situation where he would be ordering anyone other than his Plt members to attention. I guarantee the First Plt Sgt that worked with the 01 instructed him in the way things worked.
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SGT Chris Tilton
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I haven't seen that one before, but when I was a private in korea we had a badass csm who we knew not to trifle with. One day at the range we had a 2lt try and tell him off about some kind of range procedure. All of us privates exited the scene just far enough away so we could still hear the CSM screaming and cursing.
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PO1 Dennis DeStefano
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The way I see it is an E9 were in a conversation with the O-1 and that took a turn for the worst, a E-9 that was worthy of being called MasterChief, CSM or the other various titles would have come to attention rendered a salute and asked the O-1 to come in for a cup of coffee, where the real education would begin. Leaders applaud in public and chastise in private. The rules of the game are the same you show respect for the utensils hanging off the uniform not the years of service. I have ran into a huge amount of Officers that I had no respect for except their rank and yet it was always Yes Sir, will that be all Sir etc.

I have a seas story as well about my first week underway and my Chief Petty Officer and our new Ensign. But it pretty much goes along the same old salt stories we have all read and written.
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CPL Rich C. Snyder
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Of course he would. The total destruction of the young officer later on would be priceless to see.
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SPC Gentrie Cui
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SPC Gentrie Cui
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Edited 9 y ago
Reading these comments reminded me of this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoUkh1wpxxg
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SSG Ray Petersen
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Of course by oath and rank of course but there had better be a good reason that an O1 is locking up that CSM... it is all situation dictation. If that CSM is doing something dumb and dangerous, of course.. other than that I would grab the popcorn and watch the hilarity unfold. I am looking to become an officer (OCS) and I will look to the SNCO's for guidance, they have the experience that I don't have and I would work hand in hand with them to build my skill set.
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CSM Troy Hester
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Yes
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MAJ Operation And Training Officer
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I saw it twice in my 24 years and both were train wrecks in the most professional manner!
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SPC Russel Brock
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In my 8 yr career in the Army as a 13M20....I never saw a butter bar ever lock up a CSM. In the Artillery. That butter bar would have smoked like a bad Korean cigarette.
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SGT Paul Ernst
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I think this falls under "just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD do it."
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PO1 Frank Haynes
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To maintain proper decorum, yes, the E9 should. A private conversation with the O1 and his superior officer would be called for afterward, though.
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SrA Kyle Saritelli
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These comments remind me of when I was an E-3 stationed at Fort Meade. Due to NSA being there, every summer saw a dozen or so Air Force Academy cadets passing through. Just before they would come in we'd get a briefing to remind us to treat them with respect but that they are not officers and so they don't requiring saluting or being called sir and such.

A was walking back to my dorm, think I was coming home from work, and say good afternoon to one and kept walking. Next thing I hear is him shouting "Airman! Turn around and come over here, now!" I walk back and ask if needed any help. "First off, give me your reporting statement. Second, you rush over when you're called, not stroll over. Third, I'm an officer and you better salute me when you see me!" I tried explaining to him that he is not an officer and not entitled to a salute. As he's yelling at me I see my CO walking up and prepare to salute him. He waves me off and gets behind this cadet and just stands there and listens for a moment. The cadet tells me to get to attention and render him his salute and that's when my CO nodded to me and I saluted my CO. He returns the salute and I drop mine and the Vader goes ballistic now. "How dare you lower your salute. You keep your hand up until I tell you to put it down. Now you but your arm back up and keep it there!" "Actually, I think he was saluting me." The cadet spins around, "how dare you interrupt me, who do you.....", relizes he's now yelling at an O-5, snaps to attention and renders his salute. My CO dismisses me and starts in on the cadet and isn't returning the salute making the cadet hold his arm up.

My CO at the time was a former Navy enlisted man that instead of taking Chief decided to switch to Air Force and become an officer. At the time he'd been in service for a total of 35 years and was getting ready to retire. Had more ribbons and medals then could fit on his dress uniform. He was the kind of CO that anyone would want, over 500 people in the unit and he knew everyone's name and something about them outside of work. He was't keen on Academy students, especially the ones with superiority complexes.
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SGT Chris Whidden
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I've seen this happen with a 2LT trying to lock up the theater Sergeant Major in Iraq. I was blown away, but of course this LT was not exactly known for his brilliance. It didn't end well for the 2LT....
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MSG Brian McDow
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Once, I aggressively informed a new Lt. That his place was to watch, learn, go to meetings and distribute information. Training is my arena not his. Needless to say I operated for 10 years as a platoon Sergeant and did well.
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SPC William Weedman
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Don't think this is exactly in line, but when we got a new 2LT in our unit in Korea, after a few weeks of orientation he was finally in out in our work area. He made it clear that he was a new LT and that he expected our SFC to mentor him, and he wanted us privates to teach him. That attitude from a new LT immediately got my respect.
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SFC Wayne Theilen
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I had a new butter bar lock me up ONCE. Then we went and played pushball. He never did it again
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CSM Commandant
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This type of conversation always amuses me. Honestly there isn't really a time when this should happen but sometimes people have chips on their shoulders or just haven't been trained yet. There is a formal rank structure and then there is common sense. Even a junior, yeah I said junior, E9 usually has about or over 20yrs in service and has earned the respect of those around him/her. If there is ever a situation when an LT feels the need to push this issue I am sure it will be handled professionally and the young leader would get mentored and counseled by their senior officers before the CSM. Again, I have my own opinion on this topic and don't want this post to turn into a FB type string on nonsense. I personally have never had an issue with any officer when conducting my duties as a CSM. Respect goes both ways and they usually know what level you are working and show the respect accordingly.
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SFC Barry Wiseman
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Well the SGM would do it, but Lord have mercy on that Lt when the SGM pulls him into see the Bn Cdr. And that Lt would not be well accepted or appreciated by his peers or senior Officers. He has pretty much ended his chances in that Bn and especially at Company level
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PO3 Hospital Corpsman
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It wont be pretty for the O1(especially if he is just got his GWOT last night).
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LCDR J2/J6
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As a Navy O-3 training at an Army command before deployment to Afghanistan, I called an Army CSM to attention. Why? Because from 30 feel away, in front of my junior enlisted, he screamed, "Hey, LT, get your ass over here right now!!" and pointed at the ground right at his feet. I turned to him and said CSM, can I help you? To which he repeated himself. I pointed to a telephone pole nearby and told him I'd meet him over there. When he arrived, his unprofessional tone continued and he stepped into my personal space. At that point, I placed him at attention and explained that I was a 39-year old Navy O-3 and that while I respected his device greatly, I would not be treated in such a way as to undermine my authority with my sailors. Was he butt hurt about it? You bet. Did we have a conversation with the O-6? No because he knew I was right. So there may be a time when it's OK. But those times should be really really rare.
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LCDR J2/J6
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Service, not device. Ugh.
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Sgt Red Ford
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Ugh! Prissy butterbars. As a lowly E-5 my car wouldn't start so I jogged/power walked 2 miles to my squadron in a lovely North Carolina summer. I was just about to hit the hanger when a butterbar came walking out. My mind on being late and in a hurry I blew past him without saluting. He called me out on it and I apologized and saluted. He then proceeded to lecture me on a salute being a show of respect for officers. I replied that a salute was a courtesy extended to officers. In his position he was given the opportunity to earn our respect. I ended up having a conversation with the CO, again. (We knew each other fairly well by then.) The CO agreed with my point and strongly suggested that I remember to extend the proper courtesy to officers in the future. I don't know what transpired between the CO and the Lieutenant after I was dismissed but the next day the Lieutenant stopped by my shop and had a decent conversation with me. We ended up getting along fairly well.
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SSG (Other / Not listed)
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Yet another story but true.

CSM Du, little angry man from the Philippines . At the time CSM for 3rd BDE 2nd ID at Ft Lewis.
This 2nd LT had the intestinal fortitude to tell CSM Du to go to the position of attention when talking to him. He did this in front of the BDE CMD Col. Townsend, who is now Ft Bragg deputy CMDR. The LT was told to grab his S%#$ and find a new job....... he was gone never to be seen again. CSM Du smoked the entire BDE a few times including officers up to the O4 level.
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SSgt Security Forces
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Yes it can happen, and has happened - at my previous Army unit during my decade of membership before I transferred into the AF. It was at that point we (as NCO's) learned that our new PL was a flagrant douche, yet, we said nothing. About an hour later, both the SGM and the PL were in the Commander's office and the SGM could be heard screaming at the PL (while taking corrective action at the Commander's behest). It wasn't pretty, and our PL remained subdued and in an observational/learning capacity for several weeks, following that incident. He actually turned out to be a pretty good leader once he was made aware of his surroundings, and his place in the pecking order. No frivolous paperwork, no ridiculous notions, just a loud and swift redirect, and he did well without losing his motivation and morale. He's a Commander, now....and a good one, from what I've been told.
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PO1 Ron Clark
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The E9 is required by UCMJ to come to attention, because even though the O1 is a junior officer, he is a Commissioned Officer and therefore the E9's superior. The O1 calling this E9 to attention in front of his troops would not be the brightest bulb in the light socket. One way would be for the O1 to tell the E9 that he would like to speak to him after formation privately! IJS!
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SSgt Martin Wise
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I come from a very different time. Today as I see it many things have changed in our military in all branches. I was in back in the early 80's and a 01 or an 02 for that matter would never even think of trying to call an E9 out like that. An 03 might think twice and use some tact in addressing the E9

In 83 I was at Little Rock AFB and our flight line expediter was and E9. We had a training crew that didn't want to fly and repeatedly would break the airplane in efforts to not fly the mission. Our E9 got fed up and went into to flight deck and told the 03 in the left seat to either fly or get off his acft. The 03 snapped at the E9 and found his flight bags being thrown out the crew entrance door. The E9 told the 03 to meet him in his commander's office in 20. Outcome was the 03 flew the mission and kept his mouth shut.
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SSG Michael Petsch
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I once was told, "Respect the Colonel, Fear the CSM."
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CSM Louis Rothenstein
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Absolutely. Saluting all commissioned and warrant officers is written in concrete.
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LCpl Domingo Ariza
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He should demonstrate leadership by example however, you can bet that the 01 will catch hell from the O's that are above him and the two them probably won't have that issue again.
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PO3 Chris Wright, MBA
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I was walking behind a master chief on base. We passed a ensign and the master chief did not render a salute.
The ensign then stopped the master chief and asked him if he saw his rank, the master chief replied with a yes.
The ensign then said, you have to salute me and how come you didn't? The master chief's reply, "Because I make more fing money than you." The master chief then walked off while the ensign was standing with speechless.
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CPO Bill Penrod
CPO Bill Penrod
9 y
If I was witnessed this disrepect the master chief and I would have to have a "take off your anchor" discussion........
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PO3 Chris Wright, MBA
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I have seen one instance related to this topic.

I was in civilian clothes leaving the barracks and I was walking behind a master chief (in inform). This ensign (butter bar) was walking towards us. The master chief never rendered a salute and kept walking.
The ensign then stopped the master chief and asked, "did you see my rank?" The master chief replied, "I did." The ensign then told master chief you are suppose to salute me and asked how come he didn't. Master chief's reply, "Because I make more money than you!"
Master Chief then turned and walked away. The ensign was standing with a deer in the headlights look on his face.
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SSG Lucas Velez
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i'd take a video camera and record the action of the butter bar getting put into his place...lol
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SGT Squire Edmonston
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Edited 9 y ago
Having served at Fort Richardson, my last duty station in the 80's, I was desk bound and working for two Captains. One of which was a true officer and the other was a special kind of a**hole. Capt. P would consistently berate enlisted and considered that his five jumps for his wings made him a hardcore paratrooper. But I digress. I had a buddy who was an E-6 that worked in secure records room down stairs who we called the old man. He was in his mid-forties and Captain P. would always comment that he must have done something wrong or that he was a slacker for not having obtained at least E-7 by now. However, on the day that he retired, it was a beautiful thing. At the retirement ceremony, most of the entire building and a multitude of others attended, Captain P. was standing there when the E-6 walked up...except he wasn't wearing his normal BDUs...he was in full dress, with officer strips, Major oak leafs, Silver Star, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, CIB, Jump Wings, Ranger Tab and a multitude of others ribbons from Vietnam that I did not recognize. When Captain P., who was standing there with just his wings and three non-combat ribbons and had to render that salute....it made me smile. I don't know the whole story, but Captain L. told me that the SSGT. had a battlefield commission in Vietnam, made it to 0-4 and held it long enough to retire at it, but with the cuts in the 1970's he did not have the education for retention in a the peace time army and was offered either a revert to enlisted or separation into reserves as an officer...I still don't fully comprehend that, but for just a minute, it was a beautiful day in the 6th ID....
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LTJG Ansi Officer
LTJG (Join to see)
9 y
If this story is true, it's what you'd call poetic justice.
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SN Sean Willson
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I recall a similar situation when my Div-O, a Lt., was bumped up the chain and replaced by a shavetail ensign. I had more time in service than him and I was a lowly E-3. Our CPO was a no-nonsense kind of guy with 17 years in. EN Snotnose was attempting to dress down the chief because he showed up to evening muster with paint on his shoes. Chief stood there at attention for the entire speech, about five minutes. After the ensign was done chief did a smart about face, saluted the CMDR behind him and said, "All yours, Sir." We heard the reeducation two decks down.
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SSgt Jim Gilmore
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You bet your sweet ass he would...rank is rank and failure to do so is a violation of military regs and protocols.
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MSG Karl Arrington
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If a Lieutenant locked up a SGM/CSM, he better be prepared to take on his Bn and/or Bde Cdr as well.
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SFC James Asbill
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I saw this happen years ago ... The E-9 complied with the order .. and the next day the O-1 was being transferred to another command .. and I am sure not with a good OER ...
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SPC Dawn Appelberg (Johnson)
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Never had the opportunity to see this wonder. However, I did once see an E6 open a door, have a GENERAL come walk in, and have the E6 nod and walk away. Luckilly I did not drop in shock and hollered "ROOM TEN HUT!" Our Colonel had a few choice words for the E6....
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SGM Mario Guindin
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Hell No...that butter bar may outrank the E9 but at the end of the day there's is time and place for everything...there's no way I'm going to have a 2LT, not even a CPT..no way, if that E9 allows that kind of stuff he/she needs to be demoted..
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