Posted on Sep 13, 2016
Would an E9 comply if ordered to attention by an O1?
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Does he have to comply with a lawful order yes, but should he, no the disagreement in a nonprofessional manner taints the officer's judgement and ability to give orders to that CSM.
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I would of course come to attention as ordered, let the young officer spout whatever it was that was so darned important, then I would tell said young officer to report to the Commanders Office to explain to him/her as to why he/she had the audacity to brace the Commanders SGM. IF said officer ignored me, that would be fine also, because said officer would be hard pressed NOT to respond to an ORDER to report to the Commander. Luckily I NEVER was faced with this extraordinarily ill thought out exercise of stupidity. Most MP Officers are smart enough to NEVER do this.
In my Battalion, after their initial brief by the XO, new, young officers were told to report to the SGM for further briefing. After calming them down and telling them they needn't stand a Parade Rest, I had them sit in one of the comfortable chairs and I would explain how they fit into the Battalion, an overview of the Senior NCOs in their Unit, and then a more in depth view of their PSG. After this briefing, these young Officers were NEVER afraid to ask for my advice and I gave it as best as I could for the situation the Officer had.
In my Battalion, after their initial brief by the XO, new, young officers were told to report to the SGM for further briefing. After calming them down and telling them they needn't stand a Parade Rest, I had them sit in one of the comfortable chairs and I would explain how they fit into the Battalion, an overview of the Senior NCOs in their Unit, and then a more in depth view of their PSG. After this briefing, these young Officers were NEVER afraid to ask for my advice and I gave it as best as I could for the situation the Officer had.
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Personally my Grandfather was an E-9 Radioman now (Electronic technician) at the time when he served and he told me stories. Anytime an O-1 - O-3 wants to command respect but not have the time in you better watch how you address them cause it doesnt matter if your superior if you dont kniw what your talking about. (I have personally never seen a situation like this in person)
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Ones an enlisted, ones an officer...not much debate..... BUT, no one ever said 2LTs had common sense( especially a West Pointer).
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I saw this happen once. Butter bar in camies, SgtMaj is Alphas. Walking in and out of a building at the same time. Over no salute. SgtMaj refused and in his demonic "go fuck yourself voice" responded with if you want a salute climb my rockers and get it. And walked inside
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Yes of course, the E9 is still Enlisted, however their might be a problem with a ASS chewing from a CO to the 01 later! LOL!!!
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Yes, out of respect for the officer rank. Hopefully the LT would have the brains and proper training to avoid such situations.
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I've seen it happen and it's funny, but usually the "LT" is corrected later
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Sgt Jason Shaw I was going to speak up, but decided to see if it had already been addressed.
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He certainly would, but a big mistake by a butter bars. The butter bars should respect the E9 in a manner that goes beyond just rank.
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Not really related but thought I would share a second story.
I was OJT out to the motor pool for a possible position in the motorpool, was just before Desert Storm at Campbell. I am a lowly PFC at the time. Everyone had went to lunch in the shop. I was under a HMMWV replacing a starter, 24 V, heavy as hell. I had one bolt started barley, when someone walked up and kicked my feet, then asked where the Chief was. We had a WO 2 over the motor pool. I said that he was probably at chow and continued to work. I got kicked again and I told them if they did it again I was coming out and there would be hell to pay! With a few expletives added. When the individual grabbed me by the feet and pulled me and my creeper out, me cussing and just as I clear the HWMMV the starter hit the floor! When I look up it's the Brigade CSM. I snap to parade rest and start apologizing immediately! He held his hand up stopping me. Asked what had just hit the floor. I told him that I had been replacing the starter and that I was having trouble treading the bolts when he yanked me out! He apologized and we talked for almost 30 min. He was cool as hell and I didn't die!! From that point on when we seen each other there was a difference between us, not in a bad way. He would always greet me and shake my hand and ask me how everything was going. Made me see that CSM and SGM where human and that they really DIDN'T want to eat me! LOL
I was OJT out to the motor pool for a possible position in the motorpool, was just before Desert Storm at Campbell. I am a lowly PFC at the time. Everyone had went to lunch in the shop. I was under a HMMWV replacing a starter, 24 V, heavy as hell. I had one bolt started barley, when someone walked up and kicked my feet, then asked where the Chief was. We had a WO 2 over the motor pool. I said that he was probably at chow and continued to work. I got kicked again and I told them if they did it again I was coming out and there would be hell to pay! With a few expletives added. When the individual grabbed me by the feet and pulled me and my creeper out, me cussing and just as I clear the HWMMV the starter hit the floor! When I look up it's the Brigade CSM. I snap to parade rest and start apologizing immediately! He held his hand up stopping me. Asked what had just hit the floor. I told him that I had been replacing the starter and that I was having trouble treading the bolts when he yanked me out! He apologized and we talked for almost 30 min. He was cool as hell and I didn't die!! From that point on when we seen each other there was a difference between us, not in a bad way. He would always greet me and shake my hand and ask me how everything was going. Made me see that CSM and SGM where human and that they really DIDN'T want to eat me! LOL
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In the military it seems officer have forgotten respect they believe that civilians are their only help but remember who does the true work. Respect is earned not not given and many enlisted fake it.
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In Basic at Banning we were in cattle trucks heading out to get our initial equipment issue and stopped at an intersection. An E9 comes walking past with his head down in concentration and passed 2 butterbars. One of the butterbars turns as they pass and says " Excuse me Sergeant, but do you know how to salute?"
The E9 pivots on his heel turns and faces the butternut and says " Yes Sir I do, unfortunately at the moment I don't have time to teach you"
He turned and was gone so fast the butterbars has no time to answer.
Needless to say the WHOLE cattle truck busted out laughing......
The E9 pivots on his heel turns and faces the butternut and says " Yes Sir I do, unfortunately at the moment I don't have time to teach you"
He turned and was gone so fast the butterbars has no time to answer.
Needless to say the WHOLE cattle truck busted out laughing......
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I've definitely never witnessed this, although I have seen a CSM tell a butter bar to stand at parade rest.
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My XO my first time in Germany was a very young female LT... All of the NCOs in our unit were older than she was but they had a mutual respect for each other... the young E-1s E-2s & E-3s however didn't quite understand the importance of respect between Ranks... she & I were working our company booth at an on base fest and a few of the boys came up and asked what her first name was... she responded Lieutenant... they asked again... "no ma'am, we mean out of uniform or off base?" I (an E-4 Specialist) responded got her... "On base or off she is a 1st Lieutenant and your company Executive Officer, she will always be addressed as Lieutenant (last name), L T, X O, or ma'am... are we clear?" the boys agreed and the issue never came up with them again... In the office and out, she & I were friends, but I never broke that respect line by calling her anything else but her rank or position...
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Yes the would have to comply. In respect to rank structure. After 2LT getting rough up with out a doubt.
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Yes, of course, because "no one is more professional than I" and it is the law. But, I would say unlikely, if the 2LT has a brain...
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Absolutely they would, but if it's over a disagreement, then that O1 is going to get jacked up. There are better ways of handling your troops when you don't agree on how to run the team than coming at your senior staff full-bore.
All of these stories actually remind me of when I was an E2 just running papers back and forth from one desk to another at my facility. Anytime I left the Flight Planning Branch I had to go outside of the hangar doors into another wing of the building to get to our RADAR room or the control tower...we had a Gunny come by one day and I had just walked out of the doors of one wing towards another with no cover on, and our ET2 on duty was just walking out of the central hangar bay where they do repairs, and I heard ET2 greet the Gunny (pretty loudly).
Turns out the Gunny was getting ready to get after me for not wearing a cover, but got put in his place (pre-emptively) by a proactive Second Class who saw what was coming and informed this Gunny that he was in the wrong for wearing a cover on a flight deck. I didn't even find out about it until about a week after.
All of these stories actually remind me of when I was an E2 just running papers back and forth from one desk to another at my facility. Anytime I left the Flight Planning Branch I had to go outside of the hangar doors into another wing of the building to get to our RADAR room or the control tower...we had a Gunny come by one day and I had just walked out of the doors of one wing towards another with no cover on, and our ET2 on duty was just walking out of the central hangar bay where they do repairs, and I heard ET2 greet the Gunny (pretty loudly).
Turns out the Gunny was getting ready to get after me for not wearing a cover, but got put in his place (pre-emptively) by a proactive Second Class who saw what was coming and informed this Gunny that he was in the wrong for wearing a cover on a flight deck. I didn't even find out about it until about a week after.
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The thing is, everyone knows who the actual BDIC here, it's the e-9. It's upon him to be magnanimous and humble with his proverbial schlong he throws around his shoulder. If the enswine or whomever tries that shit, all it would take is a private conversation after standing at attention, and coming back to the squad. Where it will be obvious the chain of command and moral unaffected
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Yes by custom. Then the O5 would tell the 2LT that his next assignment would be 3 days the other side of the end of all the supply lines.
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Just about every butter bar Lt I ever knew was intimidated by Sergeants Majors, and downright terrified of Master Gunnery Sergeants. I don't think most of the SgtsMajs and Master Gunnies I served under even acknowledged the existence of 2nd Lt's anyway.
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Asked that quesrion of a 01. He stated that when young people are around the E9 treated him as a superior but when just the two of them he treated the E9 as his mentor. Very classy young officer.
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I would agree with most statements below, The LT would be called LT not sir, and behind closed doors there would be some verbal counselling for sure. By the CSM of course
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I mean yea they would have to comply... My first deployment the command center had a 1LT(former SFC) and an SGM who didn't get along and the 1LT would lock him up all the time but justly so (the CSM often concurred). But in my opinion a 2LT shouldn't be locking up anyone unless they are brazenly and blatantly disrespected. A soldier missing a salute... Whatever. I try to avoid my CSM as a WO1 but we are always cordial to eachother but I don't ever try and get in his lane or interfere with NCO business. And I damn sure never expect a salute from my CSM nor would ever ask for one
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Yes but as for the LT he will soon become familiar with the phrase "win the battle; lose the war"
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