Posted on Jan 30, 2015
Would you chapter an NCO with 11.5 years of service for APFT failure 8 months before his ETS date?
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I have a fellow NCO (SSG) in my unit that has been in for 11 1/2 years and does not plan to reenlist. He is currently 8 months from his ETS date. He has failed the last three APFTs (Run event) but is steadily improving, about 1 minute improvement each test. He's never been in trouble for misconduct and has never had any UCMJ against him in all his career thus far. The chain of command has initiated chapter preceedings but haven't followed through with it just yet. The commander has already imposed a bar to reenlistment. He has 98 days of leave which would put him on terminal leave in about 5 months. He's only been counseled for APFT failure once and they will not give him any diagnostic APFTs. All three have been record APFTs back to back. He is wanting to submit a 90 day school drop which would put him out of here (if approved) by April on terminal leave but is afraid there will be push back from the chain.
A little background on the guy, he came to the unit on a compassionate reassignment last April due to his child's medical needs and about 5 months after he got here he was sent over to ACAP to work there on a 6 month rotation. At this point he had already failed the APFT once. There is no organized PT where he is so he is left to do PT on his own time.
What are your thoughts on this? Should his command have sent him to work at ACAP given his situation with his assignment and the APFT? Should he be chaptered or would you just let him ETS?
A little background on the guy, he came to the unit on a compassionate reassignment last April due to his child's medical needs and about 5 months after he got here he was sent over to ACAP to work there on a 6 month rotation. At this point he had already failed the APFT once. There is no organized PT where he is so he is left to do PT on his own time.
What are your thoughts on this? Should his command have sent him to work at ACAP given his situation with his assignment and the APFT? Should he be chaptered or would you just let him ETS?
APFT
ETS/EAS
NCOs
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 72
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As a retired Senior NCO(1SG), the command from the 1SG down thru the PLT. SGT., Squad Leader need to go back through the regs...............cause your surely leaving a couple of steps out. The SSG. needs to get help through the JAG, and pecker checkers. Granted, there is a problem but documented evidence to support the claim for discharge is mandatory.
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It doesn't matter what I would do, by regs he is subject to chapter- if the unit wants to push it, then he's gone. Is there anything else he is failing to do? Reaching 12 or 20 is not a reward for being a placeholder.
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An NCO that has been so much with his family and a child no less. It would be more conducive for his command to allow him to ETS or better yet a 90 day early school release for his family. Keep the BAR although it is a rehabilitated tool and set this NCO up for success as they pursue their future.
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You can't be any harder on this NCO as a APFT failure as than other Soldiers in the past or currently serving. You can not make a "make him an example" situation out of this; I do not think that would be right or ethical given the medical situation with this son. If he as 8 months left in the Army, place him in a position where is not in charge of Soldiers. If he is on an APFT remedial program he should continue that program if he is still works at the unit. I was responsible for him and I placed him into a position where was useful to the Army yet he could still ETS, I can feel about that.
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SFC Kenneth Hunnell
SSG William Martin, Look at the guidance for taking the Record APFT. The last I have seen it is 180 days between each Record APFT
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As far as doing PT, if an NCO needs to be baby sat so they do PT......there's a problem. There not being any organized PT is not an excuse. There's no organized PT in my unit and I find time to PT five days (usually six) a week. So that dog isn't going to hunt.
As far as working ACAP, I can't comment on that. But I would suggest he do as 1LT Jonathan Lyon stated and dig into the AR's.
I hate to see anyone get chaptered and I hope he gets his affairs squared away.
As far as working ACAP, I can't comment on that. But I would suggest he do as 1LT Jonathan Lyon stated and dig into the AR's.
I hate to see anyone get chaptered and I hope he gets his affairs squared away.
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SSG (Join to see)
I don't think it's that he needs to be baby sat. He's obviously improving each APFT so it shows he is trying I would think. He just doesn't have the time like you and I do to make PT his number one priority. Especially with a special needs child that requires around the clock care.
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I keep reading about how his leadership has failed him. Is there no personal accountability? The standards are there for a reason and if he wants to be part of the military he will meet them. Being in the military is a privilege not a right. If he can't meet standards it's his own fault.
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SSG (Join to see)
Of course there's personal responsibility but where's the responsibility to this Soldier from the chain of command?
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TSgt (Join to see)
The chain of command can't be there to help him on his test. It's something he needs to prepare for and complete on his own. This issue is something that really bothers me. To be part of the worlds greatest military you need to follow standards. It's not hard. It's no body's fault but his own.
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SSG (Join to see)
I disagree. The fact that they shoved him off to ACAP for 6 months knowing he had APFT issues was a wrong move by the command. I understand your logic and if I may ask, what's your opinion on his commander and 1SGs role in all of this? Don't they have a personal responsibility to lead and train all of those in their command?
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TSgt (Join to see)
When it comes to fitness in my opinion it lies on the individual. The commander can't be out there to make sure your doing what you need to be doing all the time. You need to take care of it on your own and being physically fit is part of being a professional. If his uniform is jacked up his command isn't going to be checking to see if he took it to the cleaners or make sure he launders it when he's supposed to. There are certain things you have to do on your own. I hate it when people mess up and it's never their fault. Always their suppervison for not doing anything. I am a firm believer in personal accountability. We are all adults here and professionals so let's stop blaming other people for our own mistakes.
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He is a SSG, he has been in long enough to know the Standard, know what it takes to achieve the standard, and what happens if you don't meet the Standard. He needs to be chaptered. End of Story.
If he is hurt or injured there are systems in place to help those Soldiers. You story of this SSG does not fit that criteria.
There is no excuse for this and this a symptom of what is wrong in the Army. If you are only good at your Job, and have qualified at the range, but Fail you APFT...You are only 66% of what you need to be.
If he is hurt or injured there are systems in place to help those Soldiers. You story of this SSG does not fit that criteria.
There is no excuse for this and this a symptom of what is wrong in the Army. If you are only good at your Job, and have qualified at the range, but Fail you APFT...You are only 66% of what you need to be.
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SSG (Join to see)
So because he's a SSG he shouldn't be afforded the same opportunities for rehabilitation that a PVT would get? Such as remedial PT program, counseling, diagnostic APFTs, and adequate time to correct his deficiencies?
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SSG (Join to see)
I think what I find even more frustrating about his situation is that his leaders who have failed him thus far, will still get that excellence bullet in Leadership on their NCOER/OER even though they've done absolutely nothings to help him.
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I would definitely start the chapter. Regulation requires it. With that said, the Commander can always recommend to the approving authority to have it suspended for so many months. I just struggle with a SSG in our Army that cannot meet the standards that we preach everyday on, and what is expected of us as Soldiers.
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MSG (Join to see)
Let me ask this. When he failed his first APFT, did his 1SG counsel him and explain he had 90 days to take another record and pass or initiation of separation would be started? If so, did the NCO take another record before or at the 90 day mark?
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MSG Brad Hansen
As Soldiers age they hit a physical change that greatly affects your PT. Some more then others. Sounds like the command received a Soldier with issues and stuck him in the closet and failed him by not training him and expecting him to train himself.
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SSG (Join to see)
When he failed his first APFT he wasn't counseled regarding the APFT. He only received a counseling stating that he would be flagged for APFT. and he wasn't counseled by the 1SG he was counseled by another SSG who was in the platoon sergeant position. He took his second APFT after the 90 mark.
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MSG (Join to see)
Take a look at the regulation. With what I am reading so far, I believe legal would have a field day with this. There a so many issues from the start. Good luck!
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The question should not be "would you chapter," but "what does the regulation say you need to do." The regulations are pretty clear with regards to APFT failures. Personal opinions should not be involved in this line of questioning. As a Leader, it is our responsibility to enforce regulations and to provide sound guidance to our Leaders. To be quite honest, the NCO should have known the situation that an APFT failure would bring upon him or herself...
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SSG (Join to see)
Unfortunately, more often than not, personal opinions do get involved. Leader's responsibilities are also to enforce regulations on themselves, not just everyone else. In my opinion, the leadership failed this guy. They should have never sent him away from the unit knowing he had issues with his APFT. He recently told me he has yet to be counseled, intially or quarterly, by his rater and just ended up having to write his own annual NCOER. As much as I agree with you about enforcing regualtions, I feel that he is not the only one in the wrong here.
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1SG Steven Stankovich
Sounds like there is a lot more going on that just an APFT failure. While it is a Leaders responsibility to enforce regulations, it is also a Leaders responsibility to take care of their Soldiers. Extenuating and mitigating circumstances should be explored and handled accordingly, but at the end of the day, there is also the individual responsibility of the NCO in question.
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