Posted on Jan 30, 2015
Would you chapter an NCO with 11.5 years of service for APFT failure 8 months before his ETS date?
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I have a fellow NCO (SSG) in my unit that has been in for 11 1/2 years and does not plan to reenlist. He is currently 8 months from his ETS date. He has failed the last three APFTs (Run event) but is steadily improving, about 1 minute improvement each test. He's never been in trouble for misconduct and has never had any UCMJ against him in all his career thus far. The chain of command has initiated chapter preceedings but haven't followed through with it just yet. The commander has already imposed a bar to reenlistment. He has 98 days of leave which would put him on terminal leave in about 5 months. He's only been counseled for APFT failure once and they will not give him any diagnostic APFTs. All three have been record APFTs back to back. He is wanting to submit a 90 day school drop which would put him out of here (if approved) by April on terminal leave but is afraid there will be push back from the chain.
A little background on the guy, he came to the unit on a compassionate reassignment last April due to his child's medical needs and about 5 months after he got here he was sent over to ACAP to work there on a 6 month rotation. At this point he had already failed the APFT once. There is no organized PT where he is so he is left to do PT on his own time.
What are your thoughts on this? Should his command have sent him to work at ACAP given his situation with his assignment and the APFT? Should he be chaptered or would you just let him ETS?
A little background on the guy, he came to the unit on a compassionate reassignment last April due to his child's medical needs and about 5 months after he got here he was sent over to ACAP to work there on a 6 month rotation. At this point he had already failed the APFT once. There is no organized PT where he is so he is left to do PT on his own time.
What are your thoughts on this? Should his command have sent him to work at ACAP given his situation with his assignment and the APFT? Should he be chaptered or would you just let him ETS?
APFT
ETS/EAS
NCOs
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 72
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This is a command leadership failure at the company command level.
At what point did we allow organized physical fitness at he unit level to not be enforced?
I agree with the CSM. This Soldier should be allowed to ETS, with no prejudice.
At what point did we allow organized physical fitness at he unit level to not be enforced?
I agree with the CSM. This Soldier should be allowed to ETS, with no prejudice.
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Sounds like this NCO got dealt a bad hand. From your statement I would assume that he was dealing with a lot of stress at home and was unable to maintain PT standards during his Compassionate Reassignment. Not having mandatory PT, and with family issues likely still present to some extent, depending on the workload I can see why he wouldn't have made PT his focus. I understand the requirement of passing the APFT, but in my opinion the command has been failing him. It sounds to me that he isn't physically fit, because he's been trying to get emotionally, socially, mentally, and spiritually fit. This is the whole reasoning behind the GAT requirement and the Army Fit initiative. I hope the command has pressured his leadership to make time for him to conduct PT during normal duty hours. My command doesn’t, but I also don’t have a family to take care of so it’s easier for me to make time for PT.
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If he's afraid of push-back that he ought to improve his push-ups (or whatever the event is)and pass the dang APFT....I don't know any professionals with 11.5 years of service that lacks the confidence to engage the leadership concerning his immediate future.
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SSG (Join to see)
I agree. I've been trying to help him along but he's been through quite a bit with his daughter this last year (hince the compassionate reassgnment). He's in rough patch and nobody from the unit, except me, has offered to help him out. I feel they shouldn't have even sent him to ACAP to work and kept him at the unit for some help from the leadership.
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SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA
Sounds to me like he may be making decisions based on his sorrow and current situation. I know what it is like to loose the passion and drive for life as a whole. Getting out after 11.5 years may look like a relief now but with a sick daughter, you may want to speak with him to understand if he is making provisions for civilian employment. I can tell you from experience that it takes a long time to re socialize in the civilian world, you never truly do. If he does not have a job lined up then you go to him and use your "compassion card2" with him, MEANING: There are times in your life where you do things you would normally never do, you do things that are way to personal or intimate.
Use what you have in you to make sure he makes the right decision and if he needs to stay in, he needs to pass the PFT, it is all in the mind! Get in his mind and turn him around...god speed!
Use what you have in you to make sure he makes the right decision and if he needs to stay in, he needs to pass the PFT, it is all in the mind! Get in his mind and turn him around...god speed!
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SSG (Join to see)
He told me he's been wanting to get out for a couple years now. I don't think it's because of recent APFT failures. Although, he is quite occupied with his child's medical needs. What gets me is that he came here on a compassionate reassignment. Where's the "compassion?" I feel like they are just throwing the book at this guy.
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The procedures outlined in the refs aren't being followed. JAG will kick their separation packet back to them...and laugh at their face.
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SSG (Join to see) the fact that they are trying to keep everyone in the Army Reserves now you would be hard pressed to get it approved anyway. If the commander wanted to do it he/she could have done it after two failures given that he was counseled after both and the time period between the tests were according to regulations. Unfortunately, personal reasons do not justify failure nor does not have organizational PT justify the failures. Army programs are typically made just to maintain current levels of fitness. It is up to the individuals to improve themselves and work with their first line leaders to come up with a plan. If what you presented is fully correct, as we know there are generally items missing, then I foresee issues with the chapter getting approved. It is also hard enough to process a DDR packet (hot for drugs) with an year, so the timeframe may not be realistic anyway.
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LTC (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) the big issue is by regulations or policies that have published by your command or higher there is a requirement to have a certain amount of time between record failing APFTs in order to process Soldiers out of the Army. I know they have a policy within my higher command.
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MSG (Join to see)
sir I may have to respectfully disagree with coming up hot on drugs, I had 2 sm's come up hot 1 for marry jane and one for coke, one was a pfc the other a SSgt they both took less than a month to process, as far as apft if everything is done by the book then the proceedings are fairly quick, but then you have command discretion, ie was this sm a shit bag or a good soldier that got a bad hand dealt to him, if its short time less than 8 months as in this case this nco may not be a leader but can still function within the unit until ets, sometimes being in command sucks its not always black and white, I know from experience, sm serves 31+ years gets busted dwi, so do we ruin that career or allow them to quietly fade away
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LTC (Join to see)
MSG (Join to see) what command are you with? It got better after we had a change of command at our MSC but it was horrible for awhile.
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MSG (Join to see)
LTC (Join to see) - MSC speaks volumes, I served with CA at that time as bn sn med nco and CA team sgt, drugs were a definite no go, my very last unit was a MSU, I was the 1sg with a DWI as I know the regs I reported immediately, put in my packet for retirement as I had 31 years, my command, they did nothing about the dwi but instead let me retire, as far as APFT if the correct documentation is done, counselling statements, monthly ht/wt, diagnostic pt's, and of course the APFT after that if all the correct documentation and procedures are followed, then it should be a done deal
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The circumstances are irrelevant, some NCOs and Officers believe they have the moral high ground to make such decisions and make things personal. Especially when someone is on profile, has family problems or is in some way not 100% battle ready, you are suddenly a Persona non grata and they somehow hate your very existence, regardless of past performance.
So many things have changed for the worse in the Military, one does not need to be an even worse policy on a soldier who gave 11 years.
IF he is a discipline problem and IF he was insubordinate then a different story but I believe he simply looks weak and useless to the gung ho chain of command who need to flex their muscles, much like a Police Officer in a shoot out firing into a corpse just to "get on off".
I am generalizing and making assumptions based on the statement above, I may be wrong but darn that felt good to see it in black and white!
So many things have changed for the worse in the Military, one does not need to be an even worse policy on a soldier who gave 11 years.
IF he is a discipline problem and IF he was insubordinate then a different story but I believe he simply looks weak and useless to the gung ho chain of command who need to flex their muscles, much like a Police Officer in a shoot out firing into a corpse just to "get on off".
I am generalizing and making assumptions based on the statement above, I may be wrong but darn that felt good to see it in black and white!
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SGT Daniel Rocco Ames
Once you're on a permanent profile many commands will treat you like dirt. I've lived it.
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He is a NCO! Just because he does not intend on re-enlisting does not give him the right to not meet his responsibilities as a NCO. The reason there are retention standard is for good order and discipline. Chapters ensure that an individual is not able (easily) to reenter at a later date. The unit would not be considered compassionate for allowing this NCO to slide by, they would be deralicked in their duties. ACAP should have been a cake walk, his individual PT should have improved. He is a NCO, a leader of Soldiers.
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In actuality, the army would save money by ets. Otherwise, he would be entitled to involuntary separation pay if given a chapter better than bad conduct. It actually may help him a bit. I would definitely look into this to see if anything has changed in the involuntary sep pay.
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SSG (Join to see)
Chapter for APFT is one of those instances where one does not recieve seperation pay.
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MSG (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) you may need to check into that. first, he could qualify for half pay in the involuntary separation because it is due to fitness. additionally, he could be qualified for full pay if he can prove the reason of his decline was due to medical reasons. even if the medical reason is mental, i.e. ptsd, depression, etc. again, my information is a little outdated and you need to check the regs, not believe anyone from finance. but in 2010 I was able to help one of my soldiers with this. he too was dealing with some demons and we were able to get him full inv sep pay.
:quote: "To qualify for half pay, the member must be involuntarily separated, with service characterized as Honorable or General (under honorable conditions), and the reason for discharge must be under certain categories. Examples would be discharge due to failing fitness/weight standards or involuntary discharge due to parenthood."
:quote: "To qualify for half pay, the member must be involuntarily separated, with service characterized as Honorable or General (under honorable conditions), and the reason for discharge must be under certain categories. Examples would be discharge due to failing fitness/weight standards or involuntary discharge due to parenthood."
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PO1 Dustin Adams
The down side to getting separation pay is if he gets disability compensation from the VA, they will recoup the separation pay before he gets his disability compensation pay (unless he is rated 100%)
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The human side of me wild say no but the business said yes the army is a business and sometime you have to conduct business as such
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