Posted on Dec 9, 2020
Would you obey an illegal or unconstitutional order?
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What are your professional and personal views on the right and the duty of active and retired military to disobey illegal or unconstitutional orders? (Ref. UCMJ, Articles 90, 91, 92; and the Fourth Geneva Convention.)
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
UCMJ
Martial Law
Election 2020
Civil Affairs
Orders
Edited 5 y ago
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 203
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Our President Top Joint Cheifs
Should all be charged and removed. And if or when the president declares martial law
Every Branch Needs To Stand Down and Protect America
We all took that Oath and i will stand behind it until i die
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God
Right now We Have A President
That had broken his oath and is on a fine line of an UNLAWFUL ORDER
Should all be charged and removed. And if or when the president declares martial law
Every Branch Needs To Stand Down and Protect America
We all took that Oath and i will stand behind it until i die
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God
Right now We Have A President
That had broken his oath and is on a fine line of an UNLAWFUL ORDER
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It is incumbent upon the individual Soldier, Sailor, Marine, Airman, or officer to determine whether the order is illegal or unconstitutional (based on his own knowledge of applicable law and of the Constitution), and whether the order was morally right (for instance, if disobeying it would cause a non-negligible degree of harm relative to its benefits). So the short answer to the basic question is that it depends on the SM and on the order he's been given.
As to your "for instance," which is very specific (and partisan) to current U.S. politics, it is neither clear that such a scenario is or would be unconstitutional or illegal, because of the current issues regarding the election itself to-date. Furthermore, your WITF article is from June and has nothing whatever to do with your first example. Would it be illegal for the President, as CinC, to "deploy military to ... stop violent protests," as the headline says? It might be if it was federal troops. More likely would be a federalizing of the Guard to address the emergency, as Ike did when Democrats sought to forcefully prevent school integration in '57. They were STATE guardsmen, stood up in defiance of and opposition to their own STATE's governor.
Was Ike out of line?
Should the Guard told DC to pound sand?
Was following that order the right thing to do?
The regs say that "commissioned officers are obligated to follow lawful orders irrespective of their personal opinions on the matter." But the law itself is what he must apply to know if orders are lawful or not.
As to your "for instance," which is very specific (and partisan) to current U.S. politics, it is neither clear that such a scenario is or would be unconstitutional or illegal, because of the current issues regarding the election itself to-date. Furthermore, your WITF article is from June and has nothing whatever to do with your first example. Would it be illegal for the President, as CinC, to "deploy military to ... stop violent protests," as the headline says? It might be if it was federal troops. More likely would be a federalizing of the Guard to address the emergency, as Ike did when Democrats sought to forcefully prevent school integration in '57. They were STATE guardsmen, stood up in defiance of and opposition to their own STATE's governor.
Was Ike out of line?
Should the Guard told DC to pound sand?
Was following that order the right thing to do?
The regs say that "commissioned officers are obligated to follow lawful orders irrespective of their personal opinions on the matter." But the law itself is what he must apply to know if orders are lawful or not.
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This is a media hype. But, I would not put this action past the Democrats. The Dems witch hunt went on for 3.5 years based o. Lies and events they created. So no I would never support such an action. The constitution is focus of our support not the men and women who manipulate interpretations for the sole purpose of extending powers to political parties and political agendas.
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Hypothetically, your question has not validity. As military, your are under the UCMJ which is based on "...the Constitution..." with liberal [not political] interpretation of the Bill of Rights. As a retiree, unless you comment an offense on a government installation or you work for the DOD, the Constitution is in effect via state laws [for the most part]. Who is going to determine if an "ORDER" is illegal? Oh, I know, the guard at the gate or the mess hall cook. Get real.
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I think the real question here is whether people believe there were shenanigans going on in some states with regards to the election(s). I honestly don't think this is even a question but I digress. Only once you answer this question can you begin answering the OP. HOW do you answer this question? Looking at both sides of the coin here, on one hand you have a POTUS that states the election results were fraudulent and that the Democratic party are basically insurrectionists. If this is the case then an order for Martial Law is probably justified. If however the election was fair and honest and the outcome was correct, then an order for Martial Law WOULD be illegal.
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SSgt Benjamin Rice
WO1 Dean Casey Do you know statistics? Explain the statistical probability that a single candidate would would receive 10s of thousands of votes and no other candidate would receive any.... I actually watched it happen in ga, I stayed up all night and watched the numbers. They didn't even try to hide it. Then if I think it was Fulton, they claimed they sent everone home, but were still counting ballots...... all of which went to a single candidate... Again. So, if nothing was done improperly, they've done a pretty crappy job of appearing to do things above board. It is certainly enough to launch investigations into if for no other reason than to remove any doubt of illegitimacy. But the gov and sec of state of GA had to have not only that but a few dozen election volunteers with sworn affidavits presented as well as VIDEO of ballot counter bullying briefcases of ballots from under the table and counting them..... I could go on but I've been watching this unfold in my state for the last month so when someone says 'show me the evidence', what it says to me is that they aren't paying attention.
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WO1 Dean Casey
As taught in collage, statistics can be written to reflect what the author wants. Evidence.
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SSgt Benjamin Rice
WO1 Dean Casey - Statistics can be interpreted by the author yes, but statistical probability is based off a set value. That value was provided by live and archived poll results. The probability of one candidate receiving even a 10k+ vote dumb while all other candidates remained relatively stationary is so infinitesimally small as to be considered significant. This was the first indicator something was going on. The results I was looking at were actually live updated and archived from official polling websites, not TV. I don't watch much TV these days. Also, way to ignore the other points I brought up, which, yes, there is in fact video evidence of poll workers pulling a briefcase from under the table he was working at and unloading ballots. Any one of these SHOULD have spurred an investigation, no matter which side I was on I would want one. We MUST keep our elections from even the appearance of illegitimacy. Instead, we have the very people who should be looking at the evidence unwilling to even hear the case.
Also, sworn affidavits are considered to be enough to start an investigation and there are a number of those across multiple states and yet, no investigation.
Also, sworn affidavits are considered to be enough to start an investigation and there are a number of those across multiple states and yet, no investigation.
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Obviously posted by someone who has never served. It shows your total ignorance of the integrity of the Patriots serving in your US Military. Trust me that the US military will be on the right side of history. Now take your anti Trump rhetoric somewhere else like Alt.conspiracytheories.com.
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This is so far from reality folks.
When Governors start retaining their NG and combat capabilities we should start to be concerned.
When Governors start retaining their NG and combat capabilities we should start to be concerned.
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