Posted on Dec 9, 2020
Would you obey an illegal or unconstitutional order?
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What are your professional and personal views on the right and the duty of active and retired military to disobey illegal or unconstitutional orders? (Ref. UCMJ, Articles 90, 91, 92; and the Fourth Geneva Convention.)
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
Edited 5 y ago
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 203
Ok, now this site has shown its' true colors! The article attached to this question is written by a Communist rag! When I was in the US Army, we trained to kill Communist, not vote for them and definitely not help them destroy our Country!
If you have sworn an oath to protect our Constitution, you better damn well study it and understand what our Founding Fathers fought to create and preserve in their fight for Freedom. Read the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, and the Federalist Papers. It is obvious that our Country is no longer controlled by the People, for the People, and of the People! These propagandists will twist everything around to convince you that our Constitution says things that it does not! Get educated, know how they are taking our freedoms, and stand with the People, not against when the time comes.
The enemy is now within! I swore to defend this Country against enemies Foreign and Domestic! The Foreign enemy now controls the Domestic enemies who have sold us out!
I will abide by my oath and I will kill the enemy when the time comes, regardless of the uniform that they wear!
Bravo Alfa 2.......OUT!!
If you have sworn an oath to protect our Constitution, you better damn well study it and understand what our Founding Fathers fought to create and preserve in their fight for Freedom. Read the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, and the Federalist Papers. It is obvious that our Country is no longer controlled by the People, for the People, and of the People! These propagandists will twist everything around to convince you that our Constitution says things that it does not! Get educated, know how they are taking our freedoms, and stand with the People, not against when the time comes.
The enemy is now within! I swore to defend this Country against enemies Foreign and Domestic! The Foreign enemy now controls the Domestic enemies who have sold us out!
I will abide by my oath and I will kill the enemy when the time comes, regardless of the uniform that they wear!
Bravo Alfa 2.......OUT!!
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Sgt Greg Nowark
"Twist everything" is euphemistic, even "subvert everything" isn't strong enough. It seems "Destroy EVERYTHING our nation reveres" is closer.
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An illegal or moral order can be disobeyed !!!
Examples Nuremberg Trials and My Lai
Your second question: In the case of the last presidential election, I would be willing to support Trump, because the election was stolen!!
Examples Nuremberg Trials and My Lai
Your second question: In the case of the last presidential election, I would be willing to support Trump, because the election was stolen!!
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PFC Kimberly Staiti
1LT John Neil Jednoralski and you, sir, have misplaced your proper oath.
(Tucker Carlson is not a journalist. He is a commentator.)
(Tucker Carlson is not a journalist. He is a commentator.)
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PFC Kimberly Staiti
1LT John Neil Jednoralski and you, sir, are the problem. Just like I sat on my hands while ex-POTUS Trump took office WITHOUT EVER COMPLYING with the EMOLUMENTS CLAUSE, you must sit on yours now unless you are that hungry to spill American blood.
Dude, words matter. It's not like you're Trump on Twitter playing footsies with Putin while spewing word salad that *everyone* in the whole ~world~ knows is utter nonsense except for Breitbart, Fox, Newsmax, and OAN followers.
People here read your words and believe you.
Dude, words matter. It's not like you're Trump on Twitter playing footsies with Putin while spewing word salad that *everyone* in the whole ~world~ knows is utter nonsense except for Breitbart, Fox, Newsmax, and OAN followers.
People here read your words and believe you.
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1LT John Neil Jednoralski
PFC Kimberly Staiti - I have not misplaced my 'Oath'. I am a 'OATH KEEPER'.
You need to review your Oath
You are to obey ALL officers above you !!
You need to review your Oath
You are to obey ALL officers above you !!
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1LT John Neil Jednoralski
PFC Kimberly Staiti - You are a Socialist Commies that want to censor Free Speech !!
I assume you will never go above PFC. What is your education or lack there of??
I assume you will never go above PFC. What is your education or lack there of??
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General Mark A. Milley set the correct precedence toward alleged election fraud. His strong leadership and verbal allegiance statements allowed the new administration to transition without a military coup.
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In general no. In fact I have refused a direct order from a Colonel as an E-4, and was not reprimanded for it. Was not an illegal order, but he wanted me to reinstate the license of a soldier that backed a 2.5 ton into me and a humvee then left without even sticking his head out the window. I reported the incident straight to company command when it happened. And when the company commander told me to issue the guy a new license a few months later, I told him that he could either find someone else to do the job, or find someone else to issue the license because after that hit and run I would not be issuing him a license for any wheeled vehicle. No idea which option he took.
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It seems like the Constitution of the U.S. is recently been quite convoluted. People getting fired from jobs for saying things that were not violent, threatening, or dangerous. I do remember in 1996, an Army Specialist (or PFC) was found guilty and sent to prison for refusing to serve under a United Nations Command, where there was no U.S. military leadership present. The soldier, Timothy New refused to serve under a U.N. Commander, was court martialed and lost. This was the beginning of the my faith in the military. At that point I had 17 years in, and it was quite miserable for me. Nowhere in our Oath of Enlistment does it read that we must serve and pay allegiance to any foreign command. Yes, for the good of cooperation, I would, but to be ordered to serve under the U.N. with no U.S. leadership - HELL NO!!! So, even understanding what is and isn't a lawful order is getting more difficult. ROE's are plain out right ridiculous. I do not know what is happening to our great military. Clinton started using it as a social experiment, Obama stepped it up, and NOW, if you are or were a Trump supporter you are being pointed out and investigated. The officers in the military need to go back and read and watch some of the history on the Rise of Hitler. In fact, try starting off with Bill O'Reilly's, Killing the SS. Then take a good hard look at what is going on in our military and our society.
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LCDR Robert S.
Where in the Constitution is it forbidden that US troops be assigned under the command of an officer from another country's service? It doesn't. And nowhere in the oath of enlistment does it read that you can't be required to follow the orders of a foreign military officer. The enlisted oath says, "obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice". Nothing in that oath says that an officer appointed over someone has to be a US military officer, so unless it's a violation of military regs or the UCMJ (which it isn't), a service member can be assigned to a unit that is under the command of an officer of another country's military, and because of that assignment that foreign military officer is an "officer appointed over" the member. While the oath requires that one "support and defend the Constitution", it doesn't say that everything one is required to do be in support and defense of the Constitution (imagine how it would go over if a soldier were to say, "I'm sorry sergeant, digging latrines doesn't do anything to support and defend the Constitution"). So the order assigning him to that duty was lawful, and he was rightfully found guilty of disobeying that lawful order. There is a long history of US troops under the command of foreign officers - you might recall that US troops served under a French officer, Lafayette, during the American Revolution.
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SFC Howard Holmes
You are correct sir, however, in the oath it states I will obey the orders of the President and Officers appointed over me according to the UCMJ, but foreign officers do not adhere to or even know the UCMJ. Of course there are situations where there is a wash out, such as multi-national command in support operations, but the soldier(s) will still be assigned and accountable to the U.S. unit and command. To be ordered and assigned to and under a foreign command leaves our soldiers in precarious situations. These foreign officers do NOT have to follow the Constitution of the U.S., they do NOT have to follow laws of the UCMJ, our soldiers assigned to a foreign command is subject to their military law, which we may know nothing about, and most of all, it leaves these service members vulnerable to unlawful orders. The values of our military leadership, rules and regulations may not be the same as other countries. If the SMs are issued orders that would normally be unlawful or questionable in U.S. commands and he/she disobeys, they are subject to discipline. If the order is carried out and something goes awry, I definitely do not trust a foreign commander to take responsibility for some American Spec. 4, and guess who's going to hang. I served in a multi-national force in Ukraine, and I'll tell you sir, there were some crazy situations, and I thank God that I wasn't involved with any of it. Yes, I do understand the service of soldiers under Lafayette, however, that was also back in the day where there were no rules of engagement, no Hague Convention Laws, U.N. Laws, and all of the other Humanitarian Laws. I believe that with all of the politicization directing the way wars are fought and directed, that it really puts our SMs in bad situations. What if the U.S. Rules of Engagement are different - more restrictive than the country which we are assigned? and other such issues. I would have much less issue with being assigned to a single country support, but an assignment to under the U.N.? It's not even a country, it's an organization. As a ridiculous example, yet, not completely unrealistic, under the U.N., they can put me under command of some Russian commander. That is where the great percentage of my beef occurs. Thank you for your response sir, I truly appreciate the time and explanation you provided, and gave forth a nice piece of info to chew on.
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Judah appears to be well versed in the UCMJ. My recommendation is to next study the US Constitution and Bills of Rights. The election process is pretty clearly stated in Article II, Section I, Paragraph II. In simple terms it is the various state legislators who have the plenary rights to control federal elections by their states. A state's executive branch does not have the legal right to make changes to laws delineated by the legislatures. Doing so constitutes a breach of the law. A legislature that allows the executive branch to usurp their power and make these changes outside of their various state and the Federal Constitution is weak, ineffective and will eventually be handled by the citizens of that state. The other governing law is the 12th Amendment. It is definitely worth everyone's time to study or at least review these documents created by our Founding Fathers.
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SGT Joseph Gunderson
MSG Stan Rollins enlighten me: please tell me the historical instances in which martial law was simply enacted on a whim after any president took office.
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SGT Joseph Gunderson
MSG Stan Rollins While you attempt to find such instances, I'm going to leave this right here for when you finally feel like admitting the insanity and idiocy of your statement.
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/guide-declarations-martial-law-united-states#other
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/guide-declarations-martial-law-united-states#other
Apologies, we couldn't find that page.
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LTC Raymond Buenteo
Convincing yourself an order is illegal or immoral is easy. The standard for combing a court martial board is a different animal. That board is there to defend the order you must convince them and if you ain’t got dead non-combatants you are going to loose.
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SGT Joseph Gunderson
LTC Raymond Buenteo that's a completely separate issue. Absolutely none of that refutes my initial, simple statement. However, just to address your argument, proving the unconstitutionality of an order would be rather easy. So, too, would it be to prove an order to be illegal. Immoral was never even part of the conversation, as we would then have to have a philosophical argument about the nature of morality.
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Damn, you Marxist are everywhere. The link was for stopping BLM and Antifa from burning things down. Nancy Pelosi started that crap about a military coup, not Trump. It seems that a lot of the chain of command are compromised as well. You have not “stirred the pot” for friendly chatting, since the subject matter is so divisive.
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SFC Howard Holmes
Chief Hess, there is a wonderful book you need to read. It's called Unmasked; Inside ANTIFA'S Radical Plan to Destroy Democracy. It is written by Andy Ngo, who is a homosexual, Asian male who was beaten nearly to death by ANTIFA during the Portland Riots. As Americans go about their daily life, taking care of their families, jobs and responsibilities, these Marxist thugs are teaming up with groups like BLM and other Marxist organizations. This fully explains their tactics, how's, why's, etc. He explains that ANTIFA'S definition of a Fascist is any individual or organization that does not believe in what they believe. He describes how they Dax and terrorize individuals, how they create community service centers and how they win the hearts and minds of individual communities, while using psyop techniques in brainwashing and recruiting radicals to physically damage and destroy people and property. I'm almost done with it, then I'll Read Mark Levine's American Marxism, which has come highly recommended by friends who have read it.
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It is an established fact that none of the things reported in the article of this post actually happened. President Trump did not use any kind of force in order to have a photo opportunity.
With that said, it is entirely possible that President Biden could use force to implement any number of his policies; it would also seem like the 117th Congress would back him.
For instance, President Biden wants to force CRT to be taught in schools, and Parents refuse to allow this to happen. President Biden calls in the National Guard to break up a protest.
Now what?
With that said, it is entirely possible that President Biden could use force to implement any number of his policies; it would also seem like the 117th Congress would back him.
For instance, President Biden wants to force CRT to be taught in schools, and Parents refuse to allow this to happen. President Biden calls in the National Guard to break up a protest.
Now what?
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SFC Howard Holmes
And now sir, they are doing whatever they can to prevent him from running in 2024, yet they will not hold Nancy Pelosi responsible, nor even allow her to be called to answer questions such as, why when President Trump offered thousands of troops and/or National Guard, she turned it down, and other actions she took, or failed to take to prevent the activities of Jan 6th.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
An excellent point, SFC Howard Holmes. I have been advocating that the constant pogrom of hatred that the Democratic Party has been focusing on President Trump, and allies, for the better part of a decade, be made one of three prongs of the Fall Campaigns. Rub their hatred, unjust prejudices, and racial hatred into their faces like a naughty little puppy that's gone on the carpet. (The other two prongs would be a New Contract With America, to address energy, economy, the border, and other things known to be important with the American People; with a third prong being an outreach to moderates on both sides.)
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SFC Howard Holmes
Sir, what I am finding really ironic is how the Liberal Democrats are using specific tactics, and the leadership comes out and projects what they are doing on to Conservatives. For instance, the constant call of calling Conservatives Racists. In his speech, POTUS talked badly about George Wallace for his stance against school integration/bussing. Yet, nobody mentions that he was standing at Wallace's side and said that bussing would turn good schools in to "Jungles." I think we all know what was meant. Notice, they are talking about, or already have removed historic statues from the Capitol, yet they never discuss the actions of, or the removal of the statue of Sen. Byrd (D-S.C.), who was a Grand Kleagle for the KKK, and with whom Biden AND Pelosi eulogized and were very good friends with. Democrats were the party that pushed through the Jim Crowe laws that they talk so badly about, but make it sound like it's a Republican law. Too many issues to comment, but let me suggest a very good book that reads a lot about what's going on, why and how; Unmasked: Inside ANTIFA'S Radical Plan to Destroy Democracy; Andy NGO - A Conservative homosexual Asian that got severely beaten by ANTIFA. Very enlightening book. Next book I have been recommended by friends is Mark Levine's "American Marxism." I cannot yet speak about that one, but the ANTIFA book is extremely informative, with more than 50 pages of end notes and resources. Thank you sir and God Speed.
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First off, I am retired and have no obligation to "obey" an order from anyone in the military or the president. If you want to give me orders, you will have to recall me to active duty.
Having said that, we have to obey all legal orders when we are on active duty. We also have an obligation to not obey any illegal orders, BUT we better be damn sure they are illegal!
I agree with some of the others, the purpose of this post is to stir the pot. Drop it the election is in the past.
Having said that, we have to obey all legal orders when we are on active duty. We also have an obligation to not obey any illegal orders, BUT we better be damn sure they are illegal!
I agree with some of the others, the purpose of this post is to stir the pot. Drop it the election is in the past.
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