Posted on Dec 9, 2020
Would you obey an illegal or unconstitutional order?
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What are your professional and personal views on the right and the duty of active and retired military to disobey illegal or unconstitutional orders? (Ref. UCMJ, Articles 90, 91, 92; and the Fourth Geneva Convention.)
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?
Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....
e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
UCMJ
Martial Law
Election 2020
Civil Affairs
Orders
Edited 5 y ago
Posted 5 y ago
Responses: 203
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This is clearly a stupid trigger question, meant to bring out the worst of debates amongst fellow Veterans, and those currently serving, who took the Oath to defend to the Constitution. It is not a vital topic question that should be discussed and simply asked by some civilian, who does not know a damn thing about the U.S. Military and its laws, because #1 Judah or whatever your name is; presuming never took the Oath or experienced a day in our U.S. military. #2 You have no cover profile for who you are? #3 why are we even going to entertain this person who obviously wants to create hostile intent on a debate that has already shown the immorality and blatant thievery of the American Election System? Judah you will not have my frank and friendly opinion, until you explain your true intent.
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This horse has been ridden had and put up wet.
1) illegal order: do not not obey an unlawful/illegal order as laid out by UCMJ, Laws of Warfare, etc.
Clean the latrine is not illegal: kill the refugees is.
2) unconstitutional order: Are you a Supreme Court Justice? Didn't think so... Call JAG when you've finished the task. The Military is here to defend the Constitution, not analyze it.
To the best of my knowledge, I was not released from my oath when I retired. Vets should tread carefully when choosing groups to follow. Uncle Sam and the UCMJ are patient, complicated and vengeful.
Bottom Line Up Front: I'm retired but if some wanna be fires on me I will engage and destroy the enemy foreign or domestic
1) illegal order: do not not obey an unlawful/illegal order as laid out by UCMJ, Laws of Warfare, etc.
Clean the latrine is not illegal: kill the refugees is.
2) unconstitutional order: Are you a Supreme Court Justice? Didn't think so... Call JAG when you've finished the task. The Military is here to defend the Constitution, not analyze it.
To the best of my knowledge, I was not released from my oath when I retired. Vets should tread carefully when choosing groups to follow. Uncle Sam and the UCMJ are patient, complicated and vengeful.
Bottom Line Up Front: I'm retired but if some wanna be fires on me I will engage and destroy the enemy foreign or domestic
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Why not explain what the military code of conduct says about illegal orders? The code is what is expected from a soldier.
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I would resist such an order to the best of my ability. Even a threat to my career would not be enough to make it the right thing to do. That said, what is Constitutional or Unconstitutional may require some interpretation. Even legal experts don't always agree and one duty of the Supreme Court is to determine Constitutionality. If I were absolutely certain an order violated the Constitution I would consider it my duty to not obey it. I would respectfully decline to obey the order and state why I was doing so. Fortunately in my years of service I was never given an Unconstitutional order.
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It’sJanuary 6th and you are a Police Officer. You are ordered to open fire to protect Congress?
WELL?
WELL?
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CPO Kurt Baschab
MSgt Gilbert Jones - All I am Pointing Out Is the American news media,
the Elected officials Lying, Cheating, Deceiving, Double Standard ways. all though out the
year 2020, the Elected Democratic Officials supported and encouraged there Democratic supporters , ie : BLM, ANTIFA , to go out RIOT, LOOT, AND Burn DOWN CITYS. TO ATTACK ANY AMERICAN CITIZNS WHO OPENLY DISAGREED WITH THE DEMOCRTIC PARTYS political policy's and agenda.
Sadly America 1ST Un-Elected Vice President, that is Currently the worst Vice President along with many other Elected Democratic Officials, were encouraging there supporters to go out and attack Law Enforcement Officers , to attack and burn anyone inside Federal Buildings and court House, telling them not to worry they would bail them out and help with defense funds, and the elected democratic officials did this believing it would hurt President Trump. yet the help the Democratic party in spinning this lie, the NEWS MEDIA CALLS THESE ATTACKS, as these CITY's were BURNING a peaceful protest. as the BLM/ANTFA VERBALLY , PHYSICALLY ATTACTED the City, State, Federal Law enforcement Officer, Federal Employers , the American News Media and Democratic party says it a Peaceful protest . there was absolute nothing peaceful about it. what happen on Jan 06 was Tragic, but it was nothing compared to what was happing in Portland Oregon, Seattle WA, and the other 20 American City's that BURN in the year of 2020 with the help of elected Democratic Officials . all that Violence was encouraged by the elected democratic officials, rich donors, American News Media, Democratic faceless Bureaucrats, that the elected democratic officials have weaponized, to attack any American citizen who a threat to there political power and wealth.
it Continues, the Elected Democratic Officials Screams No one is above the LAW!
No one Except Joe Biden and his SON, No One Except Hillary Clinton and Family
No One Except Lying Cheating Deceiving ERIC SWALWELL , Who GAVE AMERIAN SECRETS TO A CHINSE SPY.
NO ONE EXCEPT Democratic GOV Of VA RALPH NORTHAM WHO wore BLACKFACE and a KKK ROBE , and REPULICAN OFFICALS caught doing this, it would have destroyed them, but he a Democratic GOV, SO Facebook, Twitter, Google, and the American News media bury it till after the election. I could Go on.
what Happen on Jan 06 was not a attempt to overthrow the American Government, if it was , it was the worst plan ever. I believe it was purposely started by the Democratic operative in the FBI, to silence free speech, by making a example of Conservatives.
the Message from the Elected Democratic Officials is if you support the right Political party, you can go out and get Verbally, Physically Violent, you can Riot, Loot, Burn down a city. but if you go against the democratic Party Political policy's and agendas', the elected Democratic officials will have you Investigated, Arrested, Prosecuted, by of federal government many Federal Agency's, Remember there is over 650 federal Agency's, each of these agency has there on federal law enforcement department. so the elected Democratic Officials just calls one of these Federal agency's to investigate you. they will have one or more Investigate you, until they get a conviction, or they bankrupted you , or both. the elected Democratic officials do not believe in the American people individual Constitutional, Rights and freedoms.
the Elected officials Lying, Cheating, Deceiving, Double Standard ways. all though out the
year 2020, the Elected Democratic Officials supported and encouraged there Democratic supporters , ie : BLM, ANTIFA , to go out RIOT, LOOT, AND Burn DOWN CITYS. TO ATTACK ANY AMERICAN CITIZNS WHO OPENLY DISAGREED WITH THE DEMOCRTIC PARTYS political policy's and agenda.
Sadly America 1ST Un-Elected Vice President, that is Currently the worst Vice President along with many other Elected Democratic Officials, were encouraging there supporters to go out and attack Law Enforcement Officers , to attack and burn anyone inside Federal Buildings and court House, telling them not to worry they would bail them out and help with defense funds, and the elected democratic officials did this believing it would hurt President Trump. yet the help the Democratic party in spinning this lie, the NEWS MEDIA CALLS THESE ATTACKS, as these CITY's were BURNING a peaceful protest. as the BLM/ANTFA VERBALLY , PHYSICALLY ATTACTED the City, State, Federal Law enforcement Officer, Federal Employers , the American News Media and Democratic party says it a Peaceful protest . there was absolute nothing peaceful about it. what happen on Jan 06 was Tragic, but it was nothing compared to what was happing in Portland Oregon, Seattle WA, and the other 20 American City's that BURN in the year of 2020 with the help of elected Democratic Officials . all that Violence was encouraged by the elected democratic officials, rich donors, American News Media, Democratic faceless Bureaucrats, that the elected democratic officials have weaponized, to attack any American citizen who a threat to there political power and wealth.
it Continues, the Elected Democratic Officials Screams No one is above the LAW!
No one Except Joe Biden and his SON, No One Except Hillary Clinton and Family
No One Except Lying Cheating Deceiving ERIC SWALWELL , Who GAVE AMERIAN SECRETS TO A CHINSE SPY.
NO ONE EXCEPT Democratic GOV Of VA RALPH NORTHAM WHO wore BLACKFACE and a KKK ROBE , and REPULICAN OFFICALS caught doing this, it would have destroyed them, but he a Democratic GOV, SO Facebook, Twitter, Google, and the American News media bury it till after the election. I could Go on.
what Happen on Jan 06 was not a attempt to overthrow the American Government, if it was , it was the worst plan ever. I believe it was purposely started by the Democratic operative in the FBI, to silence free speech, by making a example of Conservatives.
the Message from the Elected Democratic Officials is if you support the right Political party, you can go out and get Verbally, Physically Violent, you can Riot, Loot, Burn down a city. but if you go against the democratic Party Political policy's and agendas', the elected Democratic officials will have you Investigated, Arrested, Prosecuted, by of federal government many Federal Agency's, Remember there is over 650 federal Agency's, each of these agency has there on federal law enforcement department. so the elected Democratic Officials just calls one of these Federal agency's to investigate you. they will have one or more Investigate you, until they get a conviction, or they bankrupted you , or both. the elected Democratic officials do not believe in the American people individual Constitutional, Rights and freedoms.
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MSgt Gilbert Jones
CPO Kurt Baschab - CPO Baschab, where did you get all the crazy information you said above. Everything you said came from trump, and green and others in the republican party who every time they open their mouths tell lies. Why is it the republican party have to cheat to try to win elections? Now they are trying make laws to stop citizens from being able to vote or not count their votes. I predict that within the next ten years as things are heading, we will be in a full blown civil war because of the republican party, hate groups, and trump. I'm just sorry I won't be around!
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Yes, of course, (but for instance "as a means to ..." IS prejudicial) MIKENEW.COM for the result of Pres Clinton's unconstitutional order in 1995.
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If someone's does, you better have solid proof or evidence backing you up. Unlawful orders are incredibly rare. I've seen it once in 1094. My battalion was getting ready to deploy and a medic refused to go. He said it was an unlawful order because it was the UN in command. Well...he ended up not going to Macedonia, instead he went home, chaptered out. I think today it would be hard to actually have unlawful orders. There is so much micro managing in the military that someone giving that unlawful order probably would not take it and question it in private to the officer or higher ranked NCO.
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Sgt Greg Nowark
Was that mikenew.com? (I've only been following it since 1995, and the UCMJ panel preventing the Constitution as evidence foreshadowed current events).
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SFC(P) (Join to see)
not as rare as you might think.. I'm dealing with the consequences of one right now..
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Illegal orders are clear to even those giving them, that is why they are generally given in questionable or contentious situations; just one man's opinion. They is no legal recourse to be taken against a person refusing an illegal order, THAT is why they are even pressed
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How about the act of a sitting President ordering military personnel to unlawfully entering hoe to confiscate firearms? Would anyone one here disobey that?
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Sgt Greg Nowark
Yes, (too old to have to 'disobey' the order, but not too old to resist its execution).
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Suspended Profile
If that order is ever given America will be in dire straights, there are more than enough groups to make real trouble and idiots like Swalwell threatening to use nukes on American gun owners surely makes it a LOT worse... AND it's unConstitutional to boot. Hmm
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