Posted on Dec 9, 2020
Judah Freed
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What are your professional and personal views on the right and the duty of active and retired military to disobey illegal or unconstitutional orders? (Ref. UCMJ, Articles 90, 91, 92; and the Fourth Geneva Convention.)

For instance, in the event a sitting U.S. President loses an election in the electoral college, and as a means to stay in office declares martial law or invokes the 1807 Insurrection Act, should you obey such an order? Would you individually be willing to comply?

Let's have a frank and friendly discussion on this vital topic....


e.g., https://www.witf.org/2020/06/02/president-trump-says-hell-deploy-military-to-states-if-they-dont-stop-violent-protests/
Edited >1 y ago
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Responses: 210
SPC Lyle Montgomery
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Absolutely not. I would not obey an illegally or unconstitutional order. That is a big reason that I got out after 2 years. I played the game while in but was glad to ETS and be a civilian again. Now as a civilian I can coment about the worthless leadership in washington and no butter bar can do nothing about it. Seniour officers and NCO's are fine but I would never last in the military. I did just fine in construction, have a good pension and loved every minute. Not the 2 years in the Army.
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LTC Donell Kelly
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My recollection is that DOD & it’s members are SUPPOSED to BEHAVE in an apolitical manner; the higher the rank, the more you’re supposed to keep your mouth shut. Of course this post “stirred the pot.” As a LTC, I was once told by another LTC (date of rank higher than mine) that “your job is to protect the rights of free speech, not to enjoy them.” Didn’t like it, but had to agree with him. Deployed ‘05 through ‘06, the cabal of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, & Wolfewicz in charge, while we were inundated w/thousands of wounded, injured, sick. I still have calluses on my tongue from biting it, because I was leading a LRMC dept that got soldiers home to further care & their families. My mission mattered. My opinion did not, & my political opinion would have had created problems for the mission.
In today’s massive national & political divisions, it is vitally important that DOD & its members keep their opinions private, & I don’t mean on NON-PRIVATE web sites. Just shut the hell up, REMBER YOUR OATH & YOUR MISSION. Then leave the military & talk as much as you want.
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PO2 Jimmie Shelnutt
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From my own experience perhaps, "have you obeyed an illegal order", might be a better question. Now, experiencing nearly four score years of life, I can say without hesitation I would not obey such orders today. But, when living less than two decades of life, and in frightful country, my answer was an unfaltering "yes sir".
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CWO3 Robert Fong
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Is the 1807 Insurrection Act law? If it is, then I'd ask is the current sitting President still the CNC? So to reframe the question, is the current President of the United States guilty of a crime when invoking the provisions of a lawful Act. No! Therefore, it is a lawful order regardless of reason, which the military is not equipped to analyze but for Constitutional lawyers. Now, if the Constitutional Rights of citizens are in jeopardy and states have not taken steps to stop, then the President is within his right. Now absent all the lawful reasons, and taking at face the statement above, then the Secretary of Defense can order the military to stand down and for any member to do otherwise would be in error.
This is why individual members do not make decisions to obey or not, therefore there is a command structure led by a civilian leadership who has access to more lawyers than you can shake a stick at. As for me, I wait to see what shakes out of the Bridge. The Insurrection Act order is for the SECDEF not for individual members. Now you know why lawyers make tons of money and drive Maserati and Beamers.
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CPL Theodore Moore
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Of course not!. The UCMJ specifically states that military personnel must follow "lawful" orders.
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Honest opinion. I no longer fall under the UCMJ. However I still maintain my willingness to uphold the constitution. The thing to keep in mind here is we all have personal opinions. I don't hold political views really and I will never just back up someone because they are throwing a fit. I hold on to MY personal values and those are all I have to back up. There is no such thing as right or wrong. There are laws with repercussions if you break them, if you don't fear the repercussions? You are an outlaw. But, laws get amended all the time or are just simply no longer upheld. So what exactly IS law? Merely guidelines... Someone like myself who has absolutely nothing to lose (no family, friends, significant other, children, animals, religion, position, or possessions...) makes me much more dangerous in the eyes of the law since I have nothing to manipulate me to obey if I choose not to. Like I said, it's all personal.
SSG Edward Tilton
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The former President is exactly that. There is a new Commander and Chief. Anyone who does what he tells them IS NOT FOLLOWING A LAWFUL ORDER. They take any crime unto themselves. No excuses
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TSgt John Bonnar
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Nope
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SFC Robert Walton
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Edited >1 y ago
IMHO This is exactly why Civilian supporters should be limited use of this page, all to far often they ask question to instigate and attempt to push and individual narrative. The question itself is okay the narrative of the poster is the unprofessional part. JMTC

For my protection my disclaimer. No one on this site has the right to repost or reuse anything i have posted outside of Rally Point, with out written permission by My self. Go Peddle your dishonorable Trash else where.
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LCpl Kenneth Heath
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No. I am obligated to NOT follow illegal orders and to uphold and protect the Constitution. Stupid question.
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