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*Edit for clarity*
So after reviewing all the below comments and responses, it's apparent that there are a few divergent arguments being had, few if which address the intended message of the OP at all.
Hopefully I can add some clarity. The intended message is this; " we should not be judging people by race, ethnicity, or origin. Individuals should be each assessed on their individual abilities, skills, and merit.".
That's it. Any other message was not intended. I find the practice of judging others for genetic happenstance to be abhorrent.
http://www.militarytimes.com/article/20140925/NEWS05/309250074/DoD-policy-will-allow-some-immigrants-U-S-illegally-serve?sf31602802=1
So after reviewing all the below comments and responses, it's apparent that there are a few divergent arguments being had, few if which address the intended message of the OP at all.
Hopefully I can add some clarity. The intended message is this; " we should not be judging people by race, ethnicity, or origin. Individuals should be each assessed on their individual abilities, skills, and merit.".
That's it. Any other message was not intended. I find the practice of judging others for genetic happenstance to be abhorrent.
http://www.militarytimes.com/article/20140925/NEWS05/309250074/DoD-policy-will-allow-some-immigrants-U-S-illegally-serve?sf31602802=1
Posted in these groups: 
Immigration
Opportunity
Immigration Opportunity
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 35
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Personally I fail to understand why my not supporting allowing ILLEGAL immigrants to serve in my country's armed forces makes me a Xenophobe. These are individuals who either through their own actions or those of their families have illegally entered this nation, and more likely than not, been the recipient of benefits that they are not entitled to, and do not contribute to the support of those programs they draw from. I have no issue with individuals who have entered into this country legally and are in the process of becoming citizens of this country, serving in the armed forces, to me they deserve the opportunity to serve and excel, unlike those who care not for the laws and policies of the nation they have crept into. I still do not understand how it is we welcome illegals with open arms and benefits, when almost every other nation has harsh penalties in place and utilized for the same type of actions in their nations.........
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SrA Ronald Schwenk Jr
This is the most ridiculous statement. NO we have illegal immigrants and legal ones that pulled of 911. Be suspicious of all illegal immigrants. If they don't want to register and become a citizen. They are not to be trusted.Absolutely no illegal citizens in our military. Look at Afghanistan we trained their soldiers only for them to be on the inside to make it easier to betray us and their own country.Let me clarify my statement that I in no way am trying to insult "Legal immigrants" I would not mind them being in our military.
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SSG (Join to see)
SSgt John Johnston, congratulations to your wife. I hope she is able to make it next year.
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SrA Ronald Schwenk Jr
Congratulations to you and your wife. I hope she gets her citizenship next year. I hear that test is hard and most of us Americans wouldn't pass. I almost married a Phillipino now I wish I had think of that beautiful lady every day. Wish I could find her.
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SSG William Patton
We are a nation of immigrants, most did it legally and should be treated accordingly for obeying our laws. Most have become citizens and did it the correct legal way. Illegal aliens have broken the law and like anyone who has broken the law, if a serious midemeanor or felony, be denied entry into our military. The way to destroy an institution is to overwhelm it with members who are not loyal to the traditions and mores of that institution. Illegal aliens have demonstrated contempt for our laws by their mere presence in this nation. All these aliens we have coming here today fall into the theory by leftists Cloward and Piven, both writing to illustrate how to bring down a nation. It just so happens these were two of the CICs professors at Columbia. Weaken society, weaken the military, weaken the nation. All part of his master plan to fundamentally change this nation.
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As an immigrant, I have issues with allowing folks who are here illegally to serve. No issues with legal aliens signing up. The more you legitimize bad behavior (ie illegal immigration) the more you encourage it. To me it's not an issue of xenophobia, but following the laws. Now, i also don't see an issue of recruiting from some of these nations either. It gives people a legal outlet to immigrate to the US and it allows the US to vette the people coming in.
Now if you want to talk xenophobic policy, how about the law that only natural born citizens can serve as president? I think that one is a bit unfair. Who is to say that a person who has lived here their entire life, but wasn't born here, is less trustworthy than say my younger brother, who has the same parents, same influences, but was lucky enough to be born here.
Now if you want to talk xenophobic policy, how about the law that only natural born citizens can serve as president? I think that one is a bit unfair. Who is to say that a person who has lived here their entire life, but wasn't born here, is less trustworthy than say my younger brother, who has the same parents, same influences, but was lucky enough to be born here.
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SSG (Join to see)
I agree Sir. I am too was an " Alien" . I came with my parents when I was 12 years old. It took my parents almost two years to have the proper paperwork approved, they sold 2 businesses, a house and 3 cars to make their dream come true and never regrated a thing even through all the hurdles that came their way. My parents got their American citizenship after 5 years being in country, 15 years later I got mine while in AIT, my SGL helped with the paperwork, 8 weeks later I sworned in uniform, aside from the birth of my daughters it was one of my proudest moment..... I am proud to be an American, I love to wear the uniform. I am that soldier that will stop in the middle of the road during reveille and retreat at all times to include my family when in the car with me...... I joined because I wanted to, I owed it the the WWII vet that came to my country FRANCE, and fought to liberate it. My grand father was in the French resistance and fought along side some amazing US Soldiers..... Sorry I got carried away..... But yes I agree illegal aliens should not be allowed to join any military corps. Their history and back ground is unknown.... My family went thru an extensive background check before immigration approved their paperwork..
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SSgt Thomas A Tullis Jr
Sgt Chanudet, thank you. LTC Labrador, I agree with your statement. I have no issues with legal immigration and legal immigrants serving. I have issues rewarding Illegal activity with Legal rewards. This is another end run around the Constitution, our laws and the PEOPLE'S desires!
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SSG John Erny
I helped a PFC fill out the paper work to go from green card holder to citizen, it was easy and they fast track service members. If I remember right they have to have served at least two years. I think it a great program for the most part. There was this one kid from Hong Kong that was not running on all cylinders, how he made it through basic is beyond me.
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SFC William Swartz Jr - SFC Michael Hasbun
William. You are not a Xenophobe because you reject illegal aliens getting citizenship. The whole context is a pretext and a bald faced lie.
Michael -
The term 'Merica' itself pisses me off. It is an underhanded attempt to marginalize people who are fiercely proud of their country. It would probably include those who might be considered 'redneck' and that is the crux of this issue. The people that most support this carte blanche legalization of illegal immigrants are being disingenuous because many of these illegal aliens are not scientists but a way to gather more votes.
One gets the distinct notion that some want to win elections by any means possible to win elections and then uses this idea of highly skilled workers as cover, which is definitely is. So in the appearance of fairness (ha!) some perpetrate their dogmas by judicial fiat. Nice try but not buying that.
William. You are not a Xenophobe because you reject illegal aliens getting citizenship. The whole context is a pretext and a bald faced lie.
Michael -
The term 'Merica' itself pisses me off. It is an underhanded attempt to marginalize people who are fiercely proud of their country. It would probably include those who might be considered 'redneck' and that is the crux of this issue. The people that most support this carte blanche legalization of illegal immigrants are being disingenuous because many of these illegal aliens are not scientists but a way to gather more votes.
One gets the distinct notion that some want to win elections by any means possible to win elections and then uses this idea of highly skilled workers as cover, which is definitely is. So in the appearance of fairness (ha!) some perpetrate their dogmas by judicial fiat. Nice try but not buying that.
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SSgt (Join to see)
SSG Brad Porter I, personnally, understand your view and usage of that slang reference for America. However, I've seen it used just as SSgt (Join to see) has described, an underhanded attempt to marginalize people who are fiercely proud of their country and their freedoms they have because of living in this country. I personally have been a target of that marginalization.
As for being labeled a Xenophobe (not directing this at you SSG Porter), I find it distastful that ANY person who is opposed to illegal immigration should be labeled in such a way. I favor immigration, so long as it is done legally. Our immigration policy exists for a number of reasons, including but not limited to infectious disease control, and national security. I see the label as an attempt to demonize opposition in order to expand a particular party's voting base (just my opinion).
As for being labeled a Xenophobe (not directing this at you SSG Porter), I find it distastful that ANY person who is opposed to illegal immigration should be labeled in such a way. I favor immigration, so long as it is done legally. Our immigration policy exists for a number of reasons, including but not limited to infectious disease control, and national security. I see the label as an attempt to demonize opposition in order to expand a particular party's voting base (just my opinion).
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To back it up with several others. I agree, opposing ILLEGAL immigrants from serving in our military is not Xenophonia. It's called national security. I served with legal immigrants during my service. Sure many of you have as well. You want to serve get proper documentation. I hear the French Foriegn Legion is still looking.
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SFC Jason Bautista
FOR SECURITY REASONS ALONE...If someone is coming from another country, it would not be possible for the Government to fully vet anyone properly. Anyone could claim to be "John Doe" from "Anycountrystan" and there is no way to truly AND POSITIVELY identify them. Therefore any country could send an "undocumented" person to the US and they would be able to join our military, not to mention terrorist organization
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SSG Laureano Pabon
In this there are some whom enter the USA for the sake of a better life but because they don't have the money to pay for papers they enter illegally. remain quite, find work that pays them below living standards alone with long hours, facing all sorts of harassments and sexual assaults from employers whom are doing this illegally as well.
Then you have those whom enter illegally with false papers, find someone here in the USA to marry, return back to there country to get marry with that USA citizen and enter legally under a contract marriage.
Then you have those who are convicted criminals in there country flea that country and enter the USA like anyone who crosses the borders illegal. They remain hidden undetected until they slip; comitte a crime like (Child molestation, Murder, steal or sell drugs).
And you have another that can enter through a different country like Panama work them selves up to the Mexican border, enter the USA for the sake of As you said SFC Jason Bautista to cause terror on us.
Then you have those whom enter illegally with false papers, find someone here in the USA to marry, return back to there country to get marry with that USA citizen and enter legally under a contract marriage.
Then you have those who are convicted criminals in there country flea that country and enter the USA like anyone who crosses the borders illegal. They remain hidden undetected until they slip; comitte a crime like (Child molestation, Murder, steal or sell drugs).
And you have another that can enter through a different country like Panama work them selves up to the Mexican border, enter the USA for the sake of As you said SFC Jason Bautista to cause terror on us.
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SFC So and So commits a federal offense, he gets kicked out. Illegal immigrant so and so commits a federal offense, and gets signed up by the Army. How does that even pass the common sense test?
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PO1 Craig Chadwick
I believe I already responded but I don't see it. Don't conflate knowing there are two levels of lawbreaking with "no big deal" It is, instead, "No Felony" By definition. And aggravating factors don't include length of time in the US, are individual to the person in question. Now over our history, immigration has been a political argument with good and bad reasons for restricting it and for allowing it freely. The legalistic viewpoint in this case, IMO, is both dumbing down the issue and making the law an ass. A lot of folks will say inanely that they're fine with immigration if the people just do it legally, stand in line "like everybody else". But there are multiple lines and some have the ability to move forward whilst others are basically a dead end. It is NOT that these Mexican and Central American folk are just lazy, don't want to "wait their turn". If they did that they would NEVER get in. Period. At least recognize that and don't blow smoke. You and I were lucky enough to be out of a womb located in America. We did nothing to deserve this wonderful citizenship before it was ours. It was a gift. We shouldn't ought to be totally churlish about sharing it. Others were lucky enough to get married into a route to citizenship by marriage or other familial relationship. Yet others were lucky enough to be born in a country with higher quotas and/or have skills that make them similarly eligible. But that ain't holy writ and it ain't some definitive of worthy for citizenship. The America I love is the America with a heart as well as a spirit...with a sense of justice, not so much of 'just us'. You can hide dark motives behind legalism, deliberately or unconsciously. I suggest a little attempt to walk in this "illegal immigrant's" shoes. You were born or naturalized into the catbird seat of life. You can afford to be bigger about this.
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PO1 Craig Chadwick
Read carefully, Maj. I said you didn't earn it by birth. I said nothing about your service. And I'm sure there are plenty of Mexicans, etc., who would be happy to serve and thus "earn" their citizenship in the same way you have. I think you clung to that without really thinking through the rest of what I said. Beyond which, I'd say that our major problem is NOT incoming workers, it's exported jobs. Oh, and please post a link to the law that backs you up on length of presence being an aggravating factor in illegal entry.
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PO1 Craig Chadwick
I'm not a lawyer, Maj. Ballinger. Are you? Whether or not, though, I'm sure you can point me at many's the case where a illegal was charged based upon how long he was here illegally, right?
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Good luck getting a security clearance. Seems as though that's a requirement for one, but also not committing any felonies is kinda important too.
*I* never understand why something illegal is brushed away by some. They are committing a felony, you don't see an issue. But I bet if some private is walking outside without headgear on you freak out.
One isn't a law at all but rather an arbitrary thing that you are required to enforce, the other is a federal law that you don't care about. HMMMM....about that bridge...
Also, for me it's not about the immigrants. It's about following the law and doing it the right way. It's like the difference between someone waiting in line or skipping to the front and screwing over the people doing the RIGHT thing.
And for everyone that says "well they are just trying to help their families". Well great, but robbing a bank to help your family is a crime as well. And illegals cost taxpayer money, so while it's not as obvious that they are "stealing", they really are. Right out of my pocket.
*I* never understand why something illegal is brushed away by some. They are committing a felony, you don't see an issue. But I bet if some private is walking outside without headgear on you freak out.
One isn't a law at all but rather an arbitrary thing that you are required to enforce, the other is a federal law that you don't care about. HMMMM....about that bridge...
Also, for me it's not about the immigrants. It's about following the law and doing it the right way. It's like the difference between someone waiting in line or skipping to the front and screwing over the people doing the RIGHT thing.
And for everyone that says "well they are just trying to help their families". Well great, but robbing a bank to help your family is a crime as well. And illegals cost taxpayer money, so while it's not as obvious that they are "stealing", they really are. Right out of my pocket.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
Of course we need to outsource. How many public schools are teaching elective courses in Chinese, Arabic, Pashto, Persian, or really any language other than Spanish, Latin, French or German?
Some things, especially language, are not going to be the strong suit of the local recruits..
Some things, especially language, are not going to be the strong suit of the local recruits..
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CW2 (Join to see)
I speak Persian Farsi fluently. yet the Army does ZIP for language training and assignment (languages do not usually dictate assignments, hence why in my office that supports USARPAC we have a couple of Russian linguists).
they could actually train people they already have rather than recruiting criminals.
they could actually train people they already have rather than recruiting criminals.
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PO1 Craig Chadwick
Convictions for the petty offense of illegal entry (8 USC 1325) continue to dominate the criminal enforcement of federal immigration laws. During the first six months of fiscal year 2014, according to the case-by-case government records analyzed by the Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse (TRAC), two out of three immigration convictions — 24,647 out of a total of 36,256 criminal convictions — were for this offense. This ratio is little...
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I understand the intent, but think it would increase the number of illegal immigrants.
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SSgt (Join to see)
PO2 Ed C. - Ed what annoys is this group clearly does not see what the Filipino have done for this country. LEGALLY!!! Not to extend immigrant status to secure the vote and if they are honest they will admit that this is true.
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SSG Hasbun, apparently it's YOU who has not only missed the point but you have blatantly and dishonestly accused many people of being against immigration. YOU are the one who is focused on race, ethnicity or nationality not us. I can't speak for anyone on here but I will bet most will agree with this next part.
I DON'T care about the ethnicity, race, skin color, or nationality of a person. If a person wishes to come here to OUR country then they need to do so properly and legally. Using Mexico as the example since it's generally the primary focus of illegals. Two Mexican men come across the border into Texas. One has spent the last five years studying about the U.S., saving money, has applied for a passport and a work visa in order to find work here and to eventually attain U.S. citizenship. The other spent one month finding a "coyote" to pay him $1K to smuggle him into the country. I welcome the first and reject the second regardless of their skill sets. THAT is what many of us desire, and contrary to what you believe, is not xenophobia.
I don't care what country people come from whether it's Mexico, Guatemala, Venezuela, Japan, China, Thailand, Korea, Iraq, Germany, Spain, etc, as long as they do it properly. Again, regardless of the country they come from, if they do so illegally then they need to be thrown in jail and deported. BTW, my parents are legal immigrants from Costa Rica and Colombia.
I DON'T care about the ethnicity, race, skin color, or nationality of a person. If a person wishes to come here to OUR country then they need to do so properly and legally. Using Mexico as the example since it's generally the primary focus of illegals. Two Mexican men come across the border into Texas. One has spent the last five years studying about the U.S., saving money, has applied for a passport and a work visa in order to find work here and to eventually attain U.S. citizenship. The other spent one month finding a "coyote" to pay him $1K to smuggle him into the country. I welcome the first and reject the second regardless of their skill sets. THAT is what many of us desire, and contrary to what you believe, is not xenophobia.
I don't care what country people come from whether it's Mexico, Guatemala, Venezuela, Japan, China, Thailand, Korea, Iraq, Germany, Spain, etc, as long as they do it properly. Again, regardless of the country they come from, if they do so illegally then they need to be thrown in jail and deported. BTW, my parents are legal immigrants from Costa Rica and Colombia.
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SSG (Join to see)
TSgt Joshua Copeland, any time. I know for sure many others support and agree with what I stated, which IS the truth. I try to keep things as simple as possible. No need to spin things or make things complex. Life is ultimately made up of simple choices yet humans tend to complicate matters to satiate their own selfish desires.
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“We’re just not sure how many within that existing population of DACA would have the linguistic skills to qualify,” said one defense official familiar with the policy change. “These are kids who entered the country at a fairly young age and have basically grown up in the United States, so the limit of their language talents would probably be the language that they received at home.”
Well, they may want to keep checking on that one.
"Those targeted by recruiters under the MAVNI program likely will be immigrants with language skills critical to national security, such as Arabic, Chinese, Pashto or Persian."
This is slightly concerning. I'd have to check out this topic a little more, I think.
Well, they may want to keep checking on that one.
"Those targeted by recruiters under the MAVNI program likely will be immigrants with language skills critical to national security, such as Arabic, Chinese, Pashto or Persian."
This is slightly concerning. I'd have to check out this topic a little more, I think.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
Research is never a bad thing... I doubt they'll let just anyone in without screening them beforehand. Given how crucial interpreters have been over the last few wars, I definitely understand the need for linguists...
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SGT (Join to see)
I don' think they would either. I would hope not! But in all honesty, we have a decidedly questionable track record on screenings. On the other hand, there is a need for linguists and I guess if this is an area that is lacking, we may have little choice but to do what we have to do.
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1SG Chris Brown
The military doesn't just hire linguists (at least the Army doesn't) in general, they bring them into the Military Intelligence field. This involves more than simply being able to speak a foreign language. The Army has even brought in native speakers that I have worked with who spoke fluently in their native language, then put them in the stripes for skills program. They were promoted direct to SGT at the first unit based on the skills they came in with. But at the base of it, they are still MI and can't be in the field without a TS-SCI clearance, an absolute prereq for entering the MOS. Since a person must be a US Citizen to get a TS, and considering the background checks involved, I find it hard to believe that any illegal alien could ever come in the military (at least not the Army) and placed into a linguist/MI job.
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I see nothing wrong with granting citizenship for honorable military service, as long as they don't have a criminal record form their home/native country. They might be illegally, but if they serve, I think that have earned their right.
But, I have mixed emotions on the whole illegal thing anyway. The vast majority come and do jobs I don't want, nor does the average 'America'. They are decent people just trying to better themselves, I get that. But they are illegal, and that doesn't set well with me because so many people try to come here the right way and can't. So now someone comes here illegally, gets amnesty or have anchor babies... while the other person who pays the immigration fees and such still can't get a VISA. That I have issue with.
We should revise the entry system, we should revise, the work rules for migrant workers, and we should eliminate the anchor baby loophole. (If mommy daddy aren't here legally, neither are you).
But if someone enters illegally (yes they broke the law) but go to a recruiting station, pass the criminal check, then they serve honorably, why not. I do think perhaps there should some kind of penalty for being illegal in the first place, like you must serve overseas at reduced rate or something. Because you shouldn't be rewarded for your action however... if you're a good fit and are willing to serve...
With that said, I have a huge problem with getting rid of (cutting back) current personnel then opening the door for illegals. That is beyond wrong. Keep what you have. But it is a common cost saving measure done in business all the time. Cut the higher paid people and bring in new people at a lower cost, reduced long term expenses (retirement and such), don't have the 'bad habits' that older employees have, and such.
But, I have mixed emotions on the whole illegal thing anyway. The vast majority come and do jobs I don't want, nor does the average 'America'. They are decent people just trying to better themselves, I get that. But they are illegal, and that doesn't set well with me because so many people try to come here the right way and can't. So now someone comes here illegally, gets amnesty or have anchor babies... while the other person who pays the immigration fees and such still can't get a VISA. That I have issue with.
We should revise the entry system, we should revise, the work rules for migrant workers, and we should eliminate the anchor baby loophole. (If mommy daddy aren't here legally, neither are you).
But if someone enters illegally (yes they broke the law) but go to a recruiting station, pass the criminal check, then they serve honorably, why not. I do think perhaps there should some kind of penalty for being illegal in the first place, like you must serve overseas at reduced rate or something. Because you shouldn't be rewarded for your action however... if you're a good fit and are willing to serve...
With that said, I have a huge problem with getting rid of (cutting back) current personnel then opening the door for illegals. That is beyond wrong. Keep what you have. But it is a common cost saving measure done in business all the time. Cut the higher paid people and bring in new people at a lower cost, reduced long term expenses (retirement and such), don't have the 'bad habits' that older employees have, and such.
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SSG Pete Fleming
PO2 Ed C., you realize you just supported the argument for immigration reform... But if the salaries rose would you be happy to pay the higher price at the grocery store? Knowing that it would be done by higher paid legal workers...
This is a double edge sword. For the purpose of this discussion, I am not referring to illegals who come here for the sole purpose of making anchor babies, or to commit illegal acts (besides sneaking in the country) nor am I speaking about those who wish to do us harm (terrorist). But, to the best of my knowledge, the vast majority of illegals are decent people, hard working, just seeking to better things for themselves and their families.
If America actually secured our borders (which I support 100%). We would then need to change the immigration policy regarding migrant workers and labor laws pertaining to them. But we still have the 20 million, or whatever estimate you prefer to believe, already here. What do we do with them? Send them home... that's a lot of tax dollars, send them to prison... even more tax dollars. I don't support amnesty while there are so many good people trying to get here the legal way.
You've identified the problem. What is the solution?
This is a double edge sword. For the purpose of this discussion, I am not referring to illegals who come here for the sole purpose of making anchor babies, or to commit illegal acts (besides sneaking in the country) nor am I speaking about those who wish to do us harm (terrorist). But, to the best of my knowledge, the vast majority of illegals are decent people, hard working, just seeking to better things for themselves and their families.
If America actually secured our borders (which I support 100%). We would then need to change the immigration policy regarding migrant workers and labor laws pertaining to them. But we still have the 20 million, or whatever estimate you prefer to believe, already here. What do we do with them? Send them home... that's a lot of tax dollars, send them to prison... even more tax dollars. I don't support amnesty while there are so many good people trying to get here the legal way.
You've identified the problem. What is the solution?
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SSG Pete Fleming
PO2 Ed C., there lies the flaw... failure to acknowledge is in itself support of the system. Is it more realistic to close the border? I have already stated I support securing them. So your answer is keep the immigration policy as it is and close the border? What to do with the 20 million already here? What about the honest people trying to come in? What about the rise in cost when and if we find 'American' to take those jobs? Why is reforming our system and admitting is it flawed so hard?
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SSG Pete Fleming
MAJ Carl Ballinger, I think you have some good points. But securing the border might be hard. over 2500 miles, that's a lot of fence, drones, manpower... and what would you do with those already here?
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