Posted on Sep 25, 2014
SFC Michael Hasbun
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Swearing ceremony
*Edit for clarity*

So after reviewing all the below comments and responses, it's apparent that there are a few divergent arguments being had, few if which address the intended message of the OP at all.

Hopefully I can add some clarity. The intended message is this; " we should not be judging people by race, ethnicity, or origin. Individuals should be each assessed on their individual abilities, skills, and merit.".

That's it. Any other message was not intended. I find the practice of judging others for genetic happenstance to be abhorrent.

http://www.militarytimes.com/article/20140925/NEWS05/309250074/DoD-policy-will-allow-some-immigrants-U-S-illegally-serve?sf31602802=1
Posted in these groups: Immigration logo ImmigrationOpportunity logo Opportunity
Edited 11 y ago
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Responses: 35
CSM Civil Affairs Specialist
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Loyalty
Duty
Respect
Selfless Service
Honor
Integrity
Personal Courage

Of all of those, the biggest issue many have is the one they themselves have to account for, Integrity. This policy forces soldiers to ignore all Army Values but none more that Integrity. Each one of the people who enters service under this policy can never expect other service members to believe they have Integrity. The very status of their citizenship denies them of this value. The military is not a catch all or a quick fix for the problems that politicians create, we are not a test site for PC policy. We exist to secure our country and our rules, regulations and traditions exist to make the difficult task of doing our jobs possible. Any erosion of our culture, especially one that effects the violation of our Values, impacts us more than civilians or politicians can understand.
This is a bad idea for those in the military, and those that would seek to circumvent the honorable and legal route to citizenship. This is an insult to all of those who became citizens legally.
I can not stress enough how much this policy forces the military to accept the failure of public policy and damages the Integrity of the individual and the military as a whole. We are not a social science testing ground. This policy has no right to be imposed upon us.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
SFC Michael Hasbun
11 y
I have to disagree, solely because these individuals are "criminals" for arbitrary reasons. They haven't hurt anyone or stolen anything, they just stepped on our dirt. We've drawn imaginary lines on a map and classified ourselves. We are still just talking about human beings with needed skills. They are criminals because someone put pen to paper and declared them as such. What can be written can always be edited.
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CSM Civil Affairs Specialist
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11 y
Arbitrary reasons? Laws are not arbitrary reasons. I suggest you reexamine your views on laws and sovereignty. They seem a little odd to me for someone to has who has sworn to uphold the Constitution, which contains the supreme laws of this nation...this sovereign nation. I'm also wondering what you mean by " imaginary lines" and "classified ourselves?" I don't classify myself as anything other than American and those lines are not imaginary, they exist legally.
Laws are laws, and those that break them are criminals, period.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
TSgt Joshua Copeland
11 y
SFC Michael Hasbun , you could say the same of all laws. To say they have not hurt or stolen anything is nice rhetoric, but not true. Illegal immigrants often take jobs from those that are here legal, use stolen SSNs to obtain employment, use social services at taxpayer expense., etc, etc. Using your logic, we should only follow the rules we want since for the most part, they don't hurt anyone.
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SSG General Services Technician And State Vehicle Inspector
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Breaking the law is NOT arbitrary nor should it be taken lightly. Entering a country illegally (that means without proper permission) is a crime whether a person wants to believe it or not.
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SSG General Services Technician And State Vehicle Inspector
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Allowing people, who are here illegally (for those who don't understand that means they BROKE THE LAW), to serve in the military is NOT xenophobia. The article is very deceptive and highly inaccurate. I have absolutely no problem with anyone from a different country to come to the U.S. of A. to make something of themselves. I do want them to do so properly and legally just as my parents did so in the late 60s.
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PO1 William "Chip" Nagel
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The big question is "Why" are they Illegal. What specifically makes them "Illegal". Technically one of my Great Grandfathers was "Illegal". At the time there was a Professional Quota System and his brothers lied on his background/skill sets. The United States was looking from Seamstresses, So somehow (Male) William Wesling who entered Ellis Island as a 12 yr old from a family of Butchers/Farmers is processed out of Ellis Island into the US as Willie Wesling (Female) Seamstress. Hmmmm.
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SSG General Services Technician And State Vehicle Inspector
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CPT Michael Barden, well said. Sadly, his own beliefs are the ones that are arrogant and ignorant. Violation of societal law is not something we capriciously disregard.
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
MAJ Ronnie Reams
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CPT Barden, they are illegal aliens, immigrants are legal by definition.
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
MAJ Ronnie Reams
11 y
Not my semantics, ICE's definitions. INS had the same definitions.
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MAJ Ronnie Reams
MAJ Ronnie Reams
11 y
I am just going by what ICE and its predecessor INS calls them. In their book immigrants come here legally. Aliens can be legal, too, hence the resident alien, for example.
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SSG Jacob Wiley
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Edited 11 y ago
I will tell you why the American burger flipper is a better recruit than an Lithuanian rocket scientist - because he/she is AMERICAN. Is the Lithuanian in this country legally (*which makes them a naturalized citizen*), or are they hiding trying not to get deported? Xenophobia? How about patriotism and loyalty to one's countrymen?

The United States of America is the land of opportunity, the melting pot, and through all her faults – the greatest nation on Earth. Millions have immigrated here to live our American dream and they have done so legally. What does this “policy”, a term I use loosely, tell everyone? To the individual/family that spent a handsome sum to immigrate legally and become American citizens, it tells them it was a waste. It tells them they could have lied and cheated the system to obtain their citizenship. It tells them that doing the right thing and having integrity doesn’t matter. Those who show no regard for our country or her laws are rewarded with a chance to serve in the most honorable profession this nation has to offer. The Oath of Enlistment states, “"I, (state name of enlistee), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States…” How does one who blatantly breaks this country’s laws and has no regard for the constitution genuinely swear an oath to support and defend that very thing? It’s impossible.

To the service member currently deployed and in harm’s way receiving a “pink slip”, or the man or woman has served honorably but has not achieved a high enough rank, it tells them that the DoD is betraying them. They are no longer good enough to do this nation’s bidding. It tells them, despite all the briefings pertaining to Soldier well being and the “we care about you” talks, that it’s all a lie. It affirms that we are an expendable item; kite strings that can be cut at any time despite our loyalty and sacrifices. We are American citizens, by birth or naturalization, yet we can no longer serve our country? We are being tossed to the side for a lack of funding – yet somehow there is a substantial amount of money to employ individuals who are in this country illegally, are not protected by the constitution, and are not privy to the rights that we all share as Americans. Calling this an injustice is a drastic understatement.

What honor is there in creating a policy which highlights that crime pays? How can any service uphold their “values” when the DoD decides that Respect, Honor, and Integrity can be conveniently ignored to suit an agenda? As service members, our loyalty is to our country – where is the leadership’s loyalty to us?
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SSG Jacob Wiley
SSG Jacob Wiley
11 y
Re-read it before jumping to assumptions, no one "bashed" Lithuanians.
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PO1 Craig Chadwick
PO1 Craig Chadwick
11 y
Nope...just Lithuanian rocket scientists, eh? *groan*
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SSG Jacob Wiley
SSG Jacob Wiley
11 y
The jackassery is oozing out of people who, by their own agenda, refuse to read written words. Take it how you want, hurts your feelings- fine.
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Cpl Glynis Sakowicz
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SSG Michael Hasbun, there was one other thing that bothered me about your posting, when you stated that we would be better off with illegals from Lithuania in the military, versus people from the local burger barn.
Apparently, you have never worked at a fast food resturant. I have. At the time I was just out of the Marines, needing a job that would work with me, since I had an autistic child that no day-care would accept, and a great desire to earn a paycheck. The husband worked night shift at the squadron, I worked breakfast shift at Burger King, and let me tell you, its not easy, nor is it going to make you rich, but it was a paycheck.
Those who worked with me were a LOT of students, Young parents who were trying to earn a living, and those just out of school. I can tell you, yes, there were a few who were hired because the manager felt they needed a chance to earn a living, but most were bright, intelligent, and wanting better, but few jobs will give you the options of working around baby sitters, day-care, or a 'first-job' as these places will.
Before you insult a great many people, you should consider that a LOT of us started our work lives in fast food, or found themselves in those jobs while waiting for something better.... Just saying...
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SFC Michael Hasbun
SFC Michael Hasbun
11 y
You appear to have missed my point entirely. My premise is that we need to focus on skill and ability, not race, ethnicity or nationality.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
TSgt Joshua Copeland
11 y
SFC Michael Hasbun , I don't think anyone here are judging based on the anything other the fact that they are here illegally, undocumented, or what ever name you want to use for someone who did not come here using the proper legal channels.
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SSG Aircraft Mechanic
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If someone is willing to go so far as breaking immigration laws, what other laws are they willing to break once they get here? People that were born here can't get into the military these days because of stupid misdemeanors, but people who break immigration laws are ok to join? Please tell me in what world that ISN'T hypocritical?
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SSG General Services Technician And State Vehicle Inspector
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SSG (Join to see), it's not only hypocritical but a massive double standard.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
TSgt Joshua Copeland
11 y
If you can't be trusted to abide by the "big rule" how can I trust that you would abide by all of the extra rules the military has?
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SPC Christopher Smith
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Anyone questioning how this could be legal, stop and think about all the German scientist we employed during WWII. This is not something new and foriegn (pun intended), this is about aquiring the BEST talent and maintaining a strong fighting force. That starts with having the best technologist, sciencist, and medical personnel. With our education taking a nose dive compared to some of our allies, we should be looking to pull some of their talent for ourselves.
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SPC Brian Aranda
SPC Brian Aranda
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SPC Christopher Smith The scientists that weren't given inducements to work for us during WWII were working for us because they got out of a country that was being taken over by a madman.
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SPC Christopher Smith
SPC Christopher Smith
11 y
Ok, so the scientist were here legally, I was mistaken I made an assumption without doing the proper research. I have now done so. As far as talent aquiring the best talent, I am all for it. You made it here illegally, and you want to stay, you better have a skillset that we can utilize other than that we're dropping you back off in your country. We need to aquire the best talent in the S.T.E.M arenas.
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PO1 Craig Chadwick
PO1 Craig Chadwick
11 y
Believe it or not we're not short of low-skill-set jobs that lots of people are willing to do for peanuts either.
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SPC David S.
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Hey SSG Hasbun I think I know where you're going with this but as I don't want to assume can you rephrase your comment in the form of a question?
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SPC David S.
SPC David S.
11 y
race is not the problem its the nationality part that is the issue SSG Michael Hasbun. Are you saying that the military is not an equal opportunity employer?
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SSG General Services Technician And State Vehicle Inspector
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Everyone gets it but you, SSG Hasbun.
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PO1 Steven Kuhn
PO1 Steven Kuhn
11 y
Our Constitution operates on the Premise that all men are created equal. With regards to illegal immigrants I believe that something motivated them to break our laws. I think they should be sent home or given a way to pay for breaking our laws. I believe that repeat offenders coming into our borders should be jailed at Gitmo, and I believe if they try it a third time the punishment should be more sever. Securing our border is important and our Government has let us down for years. RADICAL Islamists that threaten the lives of innocent Americans should be eradicated with extreme prejudice as that is what they exhibit to us. I believe there may be moderate Muslims out there, but if there are then where are they? Why do Radical Muslims get elected in supposed democratic Islamic States and enforce Sharia Law that calls for jihad on ALL NON MUSLIMS? I am not racists, I am not a "Muslim-a-phobic (I have a couple of close Muslim friends who have taught me how violently they kill each other as will as us) but I am an American and I believe our country and the immigrants who want to assimilate into and enrich our lives by becoming an active American need to be protected from those who want to change America into what ever dictator downtrodden, drug filled, disease ridden sand trap that they left.
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SPC(P) Jay Heenan
SPC(P) Jay Heenan
11 y
So skill and ability is more important than following our laws? Who would decide which illegal immigrants skills and abilities would trump criminal acts?
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SPC(P) Jay Heenan
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So if I am against non-citizens to serve in the Army while the Government is busy cutting a third of our forces, that makes me a Xenophobe? That is ridiculous! When we become a service member, we take an oath. That oath is to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. Can you make this promise if you are not a citizen and may not know anything about the Constitution? What we are forgetting here is being an American and joining the Service is a Privilege, not a right. We regularly turn away individuals because they don't score high enough, they have criminal records, etc., but want to reward criminal activity of the illegal immigrants by allowing them to join the service and become a citizen. If the argument is that it takes so long to become a citizen the legal way, then maybe your time would be better spent lobbying to change that process. I can't speak for everyone, but I would imagine that all of us are for immigration, we just want it done legally.
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SFC Chemical Biological Radiological and Nuclear Operations Specialist
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I sincerely hope that the downvotes are a result of lack of clarity.

I agree that prejudice is deplorable, but it comes from survival instincts. As such, it can help if used appropriately.
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