You Decide: Leave a Platoon Sergeant in Position if they fail an Army Standard?

Why is this even a question to be entertained? Remember that one time when your high speed squad leader took your job because your fat? ....... Yea that's today!!!!! Hahaha

CSM Maynard,

The 1SG counsels the PS. In it he sets the the plan to rectify the problem. 1SG allots a proper/fair amount of time to rectify the problem, monitors progress, provides motivation and guidance. When the time is up you follow through on the counseling and remove the PS if the standard has not been met. We need to hold leaders to the standard.

Basically you hold the PS to the same standard as you would any other NCO, but you don't hang him out to dry. Every soldier may falter or fall at some point, we pick each other up and drive on with the goal of enabling success.

Most people would want to crucify this PSG, but how often do you see leaders fail at the range? What's the corse of action on an any soldiers unqualified at the range? Send them through until they qualify. I've seen so many officers who couldn't qualify on an m16 to save their life so they get moved to the s3 shop and qualify with a pistol. In any case, they should be given remedial training and tested a second time. If the army punished every soldier to the full extent when they fail a task, this would be a very small army.

A leader should meet the standards period, but I see people talking about a double standard, there is a regulation 600–9 in place for a reason, if a Soldier at any rank or position (excluding Command, CSM or 1SG) fails to meet the standard  they should be placed on the program and given six months to get right. We cannot pick and choose what part of the regs we will obey by.  Nowhere does it state that you cannot hold a platoon sergeant position while on the program, it's a tough right to swallow but if the PSG fails to conform, trust me, s/he will be shown the door.

I would remove him but I would be very discreet about it. I would do it for this reason. While I was deployed in Iraq, as a Squad Leader, we had another squad leader that was out of shape and had back issues. Because he was a good guy they let me be a squad leader. Being a good guy has nothing to do with job performance, or I haven't seen it when I rate an NCO on an NCOER. While on a patrol his back went out and all of sudden the mission had to stop and we had to recover him and take him back. He should have never been out there. If we were in contact and his back went out he would have created a bad situation. If you can't perform your duties or are physically able to pass an APFT you need to do the right thing and step aside. 

He must be removed from that position ASAP. If he is not and his Soldiers find out that he has failed one or both some may lose respect for him as a Senior NCOS, and the others may think it is ok for them to do the same. Also if his Soldiers see this standard being broken and nothing coming of it then they may push the limits on other standers. 

I'd remove him/her from their position and place someone who can fill that position and maintain/exceed standards.  Being in any green tab position - you're a mentor/role model; how can I expect that person to be such if they can't meet all the requirements/standards expected of them?  Soldiers will see him/her as a failure and then view the higher CoC as failures for not doing anything about it - which could result in junior Soldiers thinking it's ok if you don't meet the Army standards (physical/academic/tactical/etc..) because they will have the attitude that the CoC won't do anything about it.  Just my .02

I speak from a position of not knowing the Army Regs. That said my opinion is: Determine the reason of failure first. Can it be readily resolved? If the answer is yes, it can be resolved, leave him/her in position pending review (can he/she pass if retested?) If they pass, leave things alone but make a notation in the training file. If no, remove from position for cause and notate accordingly. Why intentionally screw an otherwise good soldier's career.

When I was on AD 40 years ago we had an E-6 who could not pass the run. He was in great shape too. He also exceeded weight standards at 6'1" and 260lbs. The man was solid as a rock with out any fat. His problem was he was shot after 200 meters. He had trouble making the mile and flunked it. His review went up the flag pole and a final review left him in place based on his other physical attributes. None of us are built identical. We all have out own pluses and minuses. Unfortunately, the fitness and composition program is NOT a one size fits all situation. I doubt the O-6 and above in most cases could pass.

CSM, in my personal opinion yes they should be removed. This leaders need to have military presence and meet the APFT, HT and WT standards like everyone else. Do we keep the lower enlisted if they fail? Do we flag them immediately and enroll them in the appropriate programs in accordance AR 600-9? These regulations are made for everyone and there should be no exceptions made.

No question, they have to be removed. There is no difference between them or any other Soldier who cannot maintain the standard. Sorry there is a HUGE difference we are leaders and as leaders we are supposed to lead. WE are the STANDARD BEARERS and that responsibility is HUGE. Sometimes people lose sight of that and assume that they are safe because of their position or rank.
Standards are standards, AR 600-9 doesn't have a special Fat kid section for PSG and above, a fat kid is a fat kid. The Army doesn't have a Special Section in FM 3-21.20 for PSG only different age groups. Failures are failures. Pass or fail
Live the standard, BE THE STANDARD. I am an old guy, I am not impressive I have a P2 profile so I can't do Pushups, but I get as close to 100 an each event I can do as possible. I feel that it is the only way I can motivate my guys to do the same. Not saying that I expect 300's from them I just want them to pass. I am just saying that I believe that I have to BE the example to SET the example at least in all the ways I can. If I can't well, then I guess I understand getting fired, and I refuse to get fired for something like that.

I am going to have to side on the example of up holding the standard. The thing you have to look at is would they let you take the CSM if you did not pass the APFT or 600-9. The answer would be no. So to me it needs to be a re ability transfer so he can get his self straight and bounce back and over come this. Just because you take a step back and regroup does not me you are not a good leader to me it shows the Joes that you are human.

If this has gotten to the CSM, it's already elevated too far. One reason God invented 1SGs is to channel the CSMs time along more important channels.

I would remove him. Senior leaders need to be the ones setting the example and should have the individual responsbility to maintain the standards. What are we telling our troops if it's okay for the platoon sergeant to fail his APFT, but not one of his troops? If the PSG is not responsbile enough to be maintaining physical fitness standards, he is not responsbile enough to be in this position.

As a former battalion executive officer, I would encourage the CSM to remove this individual from a leadership position.

However, having said that, I know that, based on previous experience, we do not reinforce that in the commissioned officer corps.

Because that double standard exists, it is a difficult decision for a CSM to justify.

Unless there is a medical problem or something going on, he should be removed. He is suppose to be one of the ones enforcing the standards on his or her soldiers. To leave in place would be a bad example to the other senior NCO's and the Soldiers. A soldier especially a NCO should be able to pass the APFT at all times. (while not on temp profile)

Everybody has a bad day or bad break at one point or another. I had an instance when I was a young NCO and I didn't pass an APFT when the time came and the response that I got was "if you cant pass you can’t lead". And I agree with this to a point, If you "can't" pass. I believe you should treat this just like any other soldier. If someone fails an APFT, you give them a little time and have them retake. If they continue to have an issue then yes further actions may need to be taken to include removing them from a leadership role.
If someone has a bad day and rolls an ankle on the run and fails the APFT for this reason and they limp back to the company to be told that they are being removed from a leadership role, this is going to give the soldiers the wrong impression, this is going to tell them the company has no faith in them as a leader. This could cause a problem in the future even when they do pass the APFT the following week and then is reinstated as a leader. The soldiers lose a certain amount of respect in someone that has had adverse actions taken against them no matter the reason for the actions. You also have to take into consideration that the individual might be going through rough times at home and there might be some other underlying issue that needs to be addressed.

And yes a couple weeks later when the opportunity was given I passed and was re-instated into my leader role.

If there is a continued issue with the passing of APFT or Body Composition program then maybe separation from the military could be the next COA.

The PLT SGT has to go stand in the back of the formation and another NCO will take charge. If I'm the 1SG and I have properly counseled you, you in turn have properly counseled your NCOs, and your Soldiers know what the platoon pt goal is- there is no room for failure. We have a pt test coming up soon and I am 99% certain the personnel that do not pass this record test will be flagged the same day so... if your not going to flag the PLT SGT you need to take some type of action.

CSM Maynard, This question is very intriguing, and I will entertain it the best I can with my knowledge and experience I have gain thus far in my career. First I looked in, AR 600-8-2 Suspension of Favorable Personnel Action (Flags) and unless I missed it, I didn't see anything so removing a leader from a leadership position who does not meet the Army standard for the APFT or with weight/taping must be customary. So far, other responses have been very good. If it was up to me to remove the platoon sergeant from his leadership position I would remove the SM and assigned him or her to a non leadership position and tell them to start exercising and dieting. The other option is tell him or her they have a week to loose the weight. I was once over weight by two pounds, and I was given 4 hours to loose the weight so a week would be nice. I myself have been in the same position but it never went far as flagging or removing me from my position. Once when I busted weight and tape my platoon sergeant said she would put my subordinate in charge of me, and I would basically be the soldier and he'd be the NCO. Yes, she was serious. If a leader can not meet the simplest standards such as PT and weight or body fat I am sure I can find someone else who can.

First, before simply sacking someone, you need to ensure that whatever action is taken is consistent with the current state of action that is taken for everyone else. And, realize that if you crucify someone on their first failure at anything, you are in essence setting the standard for the crucification of everyone else from that point forward.

I obviously have no idea what the current Army standard is for a first time failure, I can tell you that in current AF, failures meet with progressive discipline that ultimately will end up with separation if performance does not come up to standards.

There are so many reasons that a SM could move into a failure status that each case must be handled differently yet similarly in order to keep a positive appearance of Standards for the good of the Service. If the troops see leadership fail, and nothing happens....they get upset. If the troops see leadership undergo the same troubles that accompany troop failures, they will appreciate the integrity of the system. If there are medical reasons for failure, that process must be allowed to work. If it is simply laziness...that system also must be allowed to work.

As a First Sergeant, I see all the sides of this issue...seems like all the time. Standards have to be maintained, but so do our troops.