Posted on Dec 19, 2013
You Decide: Leave a Platoon Sergeant in Position if they fail an Army Standard?
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You're the CSM and you have a Platoon Sergeant that has just failed either the Army Physical Fitness Test or the Army Body Composition Program........<div><br></div><div>Leave him in position or remove him?</div><div><br></div><div>Defend your answer.</div>
APFT
Platoon Sergeant
ABCP
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 61
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I am going to have to side on the example of up holding the standard. The thing you have to look at is would they let you take the CSM if you did not pass the APFT or 600-9. The answer would be no. So to me it needs to be a re ability transfer so he can get his self straight and bounce back and over come this. Just because you take a step back and regroup does not me you are not a good leader to me it shows the Joes that you are human.
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If this has gotten to the CSM, it's already elevated too far. One reason God invented 1SGs is to channel the CSMs time along more important channels.
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I would remove him. Senior leaders need to be the ones setting the example and should have the individual responsbility to maintain the standards. What are we telling our troops if it's okay for the platoon sergeant to fail his APFT, but not one of his troops? If the PSG is not responsbile enough to be maintaining physical fitness standards, he is not responsbile enough to be in this position.
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As a former battalion executive officer, I would encourage the CSM to remove this individual from a leadership position.
However, having said that, I know that, based on previous experience, we do not reinforce that in the commissioned officer corps.
Because that double standard exists, it is a difficult decision for a CSM to justify.
However, having said that, I know that, based on previous experience, we do not reinforce that in the commissioned officer corps.
Because that double standard exists, it is a difficult decision for a CSM to justify.
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Unless there is a medical problem or something going on, he should be removed. He is suppose to be one of the ones enforcing the standards on his or her soldiers. To leave in place would be a bad example to the other senior NCO's and the Soldiers. A soldier especially a NCO should be able to pass the APFT at all times. (while not on temp profile)
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Everybody has a bad day or bad break at one point or another. I had an instance when I was a young NCO and I didn't pass an APFT when the time came and the response that I got was "if you cant pass you can’t lead". And I agree with this to a point, If you "can't" pass. I believe you should treat this just like any other soldier. If someone fails an APFT, you give them a little time and have them retake. If they continue to have an issue then yes further actions may need to be taken to include removing them from a leadership role.
If someone has a bad day and rolls an ankle on the run and fails the APFT for this reason and they limp back to the company to be told that they are being removed from a leadership role, this is going to give the soldiers the wrong impression, this is going to tell them the company has no faith in them as a leader. This could cause a problem in the future even when they do pass the APFT the following week and then is reinstated as a leader. The soldiers lose a certain amount of respect in someone that has had adverse actions taken against them no matter the reason for the actions. You also have to take into consideration that the individual might be going through rough times at home and there might be some other underlying issue that needs to be addressed.
And yes a couple weeks later when the opportunity was given I passed and was re-instated into my leader role.
If there is a continued issue with the passing of APFT or Body Composition program then maybe separation from the military could be the next COA.
If someone has a bad day and rolls an ankle on the run and fails the APFT for this reason and they limp back to the company to be told that they are being removed from a leadership role, this is going to give the soldiers the wrong impression, this is going to tell them the company has no faith in them as a leader. This could cause a problem in the future even when they do pass the APFT the following week and then is reinstated as a leader. The soldiers lose a certain amount of respect in someone that has had adverse actions taken against them no matter the reason for the actions. You also have to take into consideration that the individual might be going through rough times at home and there might be some other underlying issue that needs to be addressed.
And yes a couple weeks later when the opportunity was given I passed and was re-instated into my leader role.
If there is a continued issue with the passing of APFT or Body Composition program then maybe separation from the military could be the next COA.
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The PLT SGT has to go stand in the back of the formation and another NCO will take charge. If I'm the 1SG and I have properly counseled you, you in turn have properly counseled your NCOs, and your Soldiers know what the platoon pt goal is- there is no room for failure. We have a pt test coming up soon and I am 99% certain the personnel that do not pass this record test will be flagged the same day so... if your not going to flag the PLT SGT you need to take some type of action.
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CSM Maynard, This question is very intriguing, and I will entertain it the best I can with my knowledge and experience I have gain thus far in my career. First I looked in, AR 600-8-2 Suspension of Favorable Personnel Action (Flags) and unless I missed it, I didn't see anything so removing a leader from a leadership position who does not meet the Army standard for the APFT or with weight/taping must be customary. So far, other responses have been very good. If it was up to me to remove the platoon sergeant from his leadership position I would remove the SM and assigned him or her to a non leadership position and tell them to start exercising and dieting. The other option is tell him or her they have a week to loose the weight. I was once over weight by two pounds, and I was given 4 hours to loose the weight so a week would be nice. I myself have been in the same position but it never went far as flagging or removing me from my position. Once when I busted weight and tape my platoon sergeant said she would put my subordinate in charge of me, and I would basically be the soldier and he'd be the NCO. Yes, she was serious. If a leader can not meet the simplest standards such as PT and weight or body fat I am sure I can find someone else who can.
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First, before simply sacking someone, you need to ensure that whatever action is taken is consistent with the current state of action that is taken for everyone else. And, realize that if you crucify someone on their first failure at anything, you are in essence setting the standard for the crucification of everyone else from that point forward.
I obviously have no idea what the current Army standard is for a first time failure, I can tell you that in current AF, failures meet with progressive discipline that ultimately will end up with separation if performance does not come up to standards.
There are so many reasons that a SM could move into a failure status that each case must be handled differently yet similarly in order to keep a positive appearance of Standards for the good of the Service. If the troops see leadership fail, and nothing happens....they get upset. If the troops see leadership undergo the same troubles that accompany troop failures, they will appreciate the integrity of the system. If there are medical reasons for failure, that process must be allowed to work. If it is simply laziness...that system also must be allowed to work.
As a First Sergeant, I see all the sides of this issue...seems like all the time. Standards have to be maintained, but so do our troops.
I obviously have no idea what the current Army standard is for a first time failure, I can tell you that in current AF, failures meet with progressive discipline that ultimately will end up with separation if performance does not come up to standards.
There are so many reasons that a SM could move into a failure status that each case must be handled differently yet similarly in order to keep a positive appearance of Standards for the good of the Service. If the troops see leadership fail, and nothing happens....they get upset. If the troops see leadership undergo the same troubles that accompany troop failures, they will appreciate the integrity of the system. If there are medical reasons for failure, that process must be allowed to work. If it is simply laziness...that system also must be allowed to work.
As a First Sergeant, I see all the sides of this issue...seems like all the time. Standards have to be maintained, but so do our troops.
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Fire him! The platoon sergeant is the driving force for the discipline, morale, and welfare of the team. How can one maintain the discipline of his men if he cannot be disciplined himself by meeting the standards set? This position is reserved for those who can set the example for their men to emulate!
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Personally, I say absolutely not. You can't hold your soldiers to a standard that you can't meet. After failing I say put the PSG on probation until they take their retest, which should be in the mandated time period. If they fail the retest, the next senior person takes that position. The NCO will remain in the platoon as squad leader.
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At a minimum this NCO is going to be suspended. The reason is simple, how can a leader hold others to the standard, if they themselves cannot achieve the standards. I will give him a 4856 with a course of action laid out, up to and including his potential relief if he does not meet the standards in the timeline I have given him. Even if he comes back and achieves the standards, his lapse will still be annotated on his NCOER.
I fully agree that everyone has a lapse in discpline, but you must be willing to answer for those lapses.
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CSM I would remove the Platoon Sergeant from his position. The way I see it how can you ask anything of your soldiers that your are not able or willing to do yourself. As a leader it is that leaders responsibility to lead by example. The Platoon Sergeant's soldiers may respect him still even though he has failed to meet APFT or ABCP standards but soldiers often begin to think when they see this "why should I listen to him when he can't even pass an APFT?"
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I would not fire him I would suspend him until he passes his APFT. The reason being is your Soldiers look up to and you are placed in that position to lead and teach your Soldiers what the Army Standard is. If your Soldier can not see self motivation in the PSG then they are not going to have any. Even though I am not in that position I will tell you as a Soldier your PSG sets the example as well as the standard.
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For the sake of being the devils advocate, what if this PSG fails a standard, but he has the highest overall Platoon Pt score in the BN, all his soldiers shoot expert and sharpshooter, the platoon has no serious incidents and DUIs since he's been a PSG and his subordinates believe he/she is a great leader should the CoC remove him even having a high success rate.
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SGT Chris Hill
SSG Cedeno, as I was attempting to say but got cut off, yes it seems drastic. Maybe there is a way to keep that PSG in his/her position, but regardless, people talk. But we also talk about having integrity to our Soldiers, if this PSG were to fail APFT/ABCP, then s/he should be dealt with accordingly. I've spent majority of my time in a line unit, always leading Soldiers and having eyes on my leadership. If s/he barely fails weight/tape or APFT, that's not a mistake, as a PSG you better damn well know better. What kinda message does that send to the subordinates if the PSG even barely fails? I wouldn't say go as far as inputting affecting his/her NCOER if it's just a one time thing, that's his/her freebie, but removing him/her from their position, yes. Even if it's a temporary move, just to show the Soldiers and fellow NCOs that a 1SG/CSM will remove you from a PSG position if you fail, but if you can bounce back and pass 2 consecutive APFT's, allow that PSG to earn his position back. Showing subordinates what it takes to earn your spot back, they will know that the NCO did what s/he had to do in order to earn their position back. that tells me "yes I failed, but I did what I had to do to earn it back" can gain even more respect from fellow Soldiers and NCO's. Yeah pretty cut throat it seems but damn this is a professional organization, "I will earn their respect, and confidence, as well as that of my Soldiers", make a mistake, got it, but gain my respect and confidence in you as a leader by doing what you have to do to gain your position back, not just swept under the rug.
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1SG (Join to see)
SGT Hill,
I agree we your statement, but giving a freebie still sends the wrong message. I’m
going to quote you:
“But we also talk about having integrity to our
Soldiers, if this PSG were to fail APFT/ABCP, then s/he should be dealt with
accordingly.”
Then you contradict that statement with this statement, “I wouldn't say
go as far as inputting affecting his/her NCOER if it's just a one time thing,
that's his/her freebie”
With your first statement you stated, as a leader I should not
compromise my integrity nor my moral courage (Like the NCO Creed States) so as a
rater should I give my SGT/TL a Needs Improvement/No on the value Duty, because
I cannot as a leader compromise integrity and I have to be fair and impartial. If
that’s how the NCO performed that is how he should be annotated on his eval.
Right? If not the other NCOs will believe that they are entitled to a freebie, because
you gave a freebie in the past. That can be perceived as showing favoritism to
one NCO.
What I’m trying to say and this is based on my opinion, as Future Senior NCOs
we need to know when to show empathy and allow our subordinates to be resilient
before we hit them with the hammer. We should COUNSEL and FOLLOW UP, to see is
there’s any improvement, MENTOR that leader and evaluate the his performance
and the performance of the soldiers.
You can have a piss poor PSG, but if you have strong SL that PSG will look
great on paper and if you have a strong PSG with piss poor SL that could care
about nothing and make the PSG look like crap.
SGT Hill I enjoyed this debate!
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Definitely wouldn't leave the PSG in that position, they are a Soldiers leadership and we as leaders are obligated to uphold the standards, especially basic soldiering standards such as APFT and 600-9. I've seen instances where a PSG fails one or the other and nothing happens, but yet when a section sergeant fails, the NCO is counseled, flagged and loses his/her position. Hell even a 1SG should be held to the same standard! No one is exempt from regulations, and if you wear the stripes or brass, you better be setting the standard! If we don't, that's what we call hypocrisy and all respect is lost towards that particular NCO/Officer
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CSM,
I definitely feel that they should not be in the position. It is a simple Army standard. Unfortunately the regulation allows anyone below 1SG to remain in the position. Frankly, I think that anyone in ANY leadership position should not be allowed to be in that position. The Army is shrinking and there are a ton of eager and good Soldiers waiting to take their place.
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CSM Mike Maynard
You are exactly right SFC Jones, it's not mandated that they be removed. This is a leadership issue and you have to determine the climate you want to set at your echelon.
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CW2 (Join to see)
CSM exactly. I think it's like my NCOER thread I started. I just don't think a leader that can't meet the standard deserves to be in a leadership position. Maybe I'd change my mind if I was at your level but the highest level I've been at is 1SG. If a Soldier fails the APFT or HTWT we basically start thinking of them as a loss (depending how far off they are). And yet NCOs we allow to continue to counsel subordinates about passing the APFT. I mean how can a PSG who can't pass the APFT be expected to negatively counsel subordinate NCOs for failing? How hypocritical would that be?
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MSG (Join to see)
Gotta ask yourself a few questions first...Are they Trained? Are they Able? Are they Willing? You see, failing a standard is a message...it's a message from the Soldier to the leadership that they are either untrained, unable or unwilling. So, leader...did you train them using the STP to standard in a controlled environment ensuring METL and supporting tasks are understood and executed? Did you clearly explain using effective communication skills what the standard was and what was and is expected? Did you provide the Soldier with all of the equipment, training and education necessary to perform the task? What are the significant, insignificant internal and external factors affecting the Soldiers performance standards? If you haven't addressed these questions and LED the Soldier to come up with solutions then you need to step up your leadership game. Leadership "position" or not...every Soldier is entitled to that communication and leadership...any idiot can replace people at a whim or at a first failure...it takes a LEADER to make LEADERS ;)
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CW2 (Join to see)
MSG, I'm sorry but yes we provided them with the time to conduct PT four or five days a week. The standard has been in place for quite some time. A SFC that can't pass the APFT gets no sympathy from me and I refuse to say the problem is on the leadership.
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Personally rank shouldn't be an issue in this situation. Standards are just that. If you had an E-4 team leader that failed the same test what would be your course of action. I can say from personal experience that the team leader would be removed from a leadership position. If you can't uphold the standards how can you expect the same from the soldiers you lead. The Army's pt and body fat standards are weak to say the least, if we can't meet these standards, maybe its time for a career change.
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CSM Maynard,
I say remove him immediately, "BUT" allow him to stand in front of platoon and tell his Soldiers why he is being removed or better yet allow him to have the option of stepping aside voluntarily. I believe most Soldiers will respect his honesty and would support the situation a little better. Soldiers prefer for leaders to own up to their problem(s), then fix it (if humanely possible) and then return at some point; this can also be associated with resiliency. I see a win in this for everyone.
I say remove him immediately, "BUT" allow him to stand in front of platoon and tell his Soldiers why he is being removed or better yet allow him to have the option of stepping aside voluntarily. I believe most Soldiers will respect his honesty and would support the situation a little better. Soldiers prefer for leaders to own up to their problem(s), then fix it (if humanely possible) and then return at some point; this can also be associated with resiliency. I see a win in this for everyone.
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1SG Michael Blount
CW2 Jones - toss in a flogging with that public humiliation and you may have a winning formula
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CW5 (Join to see)
LOL CSM Blount! I think we can have a winning formula without the flogging; that may be too much pain to cope with. Would you remove him as well? If so, how soon? Oh if you may CSM, please kindly add one more square or dot for me next time :-)
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I would remove him as well. Let him do remedial training and get back to standard and earn the leadership position back. As a junior soldier, it looks awful to see any form of leadership fail the standards and is completely discouraging to not only myself, but other soldiers as well. How can someone ask us to maintain the standard if they cannot themselves?
I could understand if they just came off an injury or something and have been on a serious profile for a while, but if it's bad enough to were they cannot pass, they should go back to the doctor and get back on a profile. That situation happened to me when I destroyed my knee. If it was somebody in charge of me failing, I'd expect them to either fix the situation immediately, or relieve themselves honestly. There are soldiers who are missing limbs and severely injured who could still manage to pass PT standards. No excuse.
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CSM Mike Maynard
PFC Rawlins - thanks for providing your perspective.
As you have stated, Soldiers need to have leaders (examples) that meet standards, otherwise it contributes to the demise of good order and discipline.
You have expressed what I believed to be true, thanks for the contribution.
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CPT (Join to see)
On a side note. What is a PFC(P), that is automatic when you hit the time requirements. Do PFCs go to a board now like NCOs. Or is it because you can get a waiver to get promoted that makes you have the P.
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1SG (Join to see)
Fellow Soldiers, I am a Platoon Sergeant and agree with PFC Rawlins 100 percent. I pride myself to set the example for Soldiers , Junior NCO's and my peers to follow. That is why it is a leadership position you can't expect Soldiers to do what you can't. Set the example and continue to push them to excel pass it. That is what makes a great leader in my book...
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