Posted on Dec 21, 2013
CSM Mike Maynard
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You are the Rater and one of your NCOs fails (performance/effort related) either APFT/ABCP during the rated period. Within a few months (before the Thru date) they are able to meet the Army Standard.<div><br></div><div>Are they a "Needs Improvement" for failing?<br></div><div>Are they a "Needs Much Improvement" for failing?</div><div>Are they a "Success" for improving from failure to passing?</div><div>Are they a "Success" because the were in a passing status at the Thru Date?</div><div><br></div><div>There is no regulatory answer - How and where do you annotate the performance, or lack thereof on the NCOER?</div>
Posted in these groups: United states army logo ArmyP542 APFT1efa5058 NCOERChecklist icon 2 StandardsF6f0e119 ABCP
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Responses: 54
SFC Mpd Ncoic
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Definitely a success; maybe an excellence depending on how much improvement there was.
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MSG Air Defense Artillery (ADA) Senior Sergeant
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I have actually had to deal with an NCO I was rating. He failed multiple events twice during rated period but passed with a 261 just before his NCOER was due. He was rated as a success with bullets that announced his earlier performance failures.
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SFC Mpd Ncoic
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CSM, it just depends on the circumstances. For example, I have a SSG who runs in different half marathons and 10 milers all year long. He consistently places highly in these races. He has always passed his PT test with ease, usually scoring on the extended scale. He also runs with others during their PT test to help out as much as possible. Instead of going to lunch, he goes to the gym; he does push ups and sit ups in the office. If he were to fail a PT test during this rating period for whatever reason, but then got back to his normal self on the next, then yes, he absolutely deserves an excellent. At the end of the day, we are all human, and stuff happens. I think it would disgraceful to judge him for that one time that he was human during the rating period.
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
>1 y
MSG (Join to see) - Seems that you were trying to do the right thing to at least bring attention to his difficulties in meeting the standard during the rating period, but he would still get lumped in with everyone else that was rated a success by meeting the standard for the whole time period as most Board Promotion Panel Members don't have time to read rater's comments and rely solely on the rating. Rater's comments are meant more for the professional development of the ratee, not nuances for the Panel Members.
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
>1 y
SFC (Join to see) - I definitely agree with most of what you're saying, it's not all about the APFT and the Marathons and other demonstrations of physical fitness excellence do contribute to the rating. My issue is with the use of a "bad performance" as a benchmark to determine Excellence if they improve from their bad performance. This is of course, with everything else being the same. With that line of thinking, someone that fails, then scores a 260 would rate an excellence, whereas someone who consistently scored a 260 would only be rated a success as they didn't "improve significantly". So, basically, they are being rewarded for having a bad performance.
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SPC Jc6 Computer Technician
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CSM-

 

 I believe it depends entirely on the situtation behind the failure. If the NCO has recently injured themselves and failed in a large margin, showing that the NCO in question was not keeping up with his or her physical fitness while injured. Lets say they broke their arm, and they only failed the push-ups event, but came back next APFT and nearly maxed. I would see that as a "Success" for not only meetting, but surpassing the standard put before them. Take the same scenario and lets say that NCO fails the sit ups and run event, but passes push-ups. That would get a "Needs Much Improvement" for failure to maintain standard.

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SSG James Doherty
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CSM,

 

This is a very situational question:

 

If the NCO in question has recently completed the recovery period from a long in the line of duty injury, i.e. didn't fall down the stairs drunk and break an ankle, and fails only marginally but recovers within the rating period, Success not annotating the previous failure because they recovered and met the standard if not within the allowed recovery period.

 

If the NCO in question has recently completed the recovery period from a long in the line of duty injury, i.e. didn't fall down the stairs drunk and break an ankle, and fails greatly but recovers within the rating period, Success anotating the previous failure because they met the standard but obviously did nothing to maintain themself during their injured time.

 

If the NCO has failed entirely on their own accord but meets the standard within the rating period Needs Much Improvement because NCO's are the standard bearers.  If you can only meet the standard when the bottom line drops then you have no business progressing in the military and should probably face the QMP to make room for those that do uphold the standards.

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CSM Joseph Mitchell
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It should be a success because the Soldier has a passing status at the completion on the rating period. Your comments should reflect the Soldiers performance such as Soldier failed initial APFT during rating period worked hard during rating period and passed next APFT. It can also be a needs improvement with a similar comment but with more room for the Soldier to appeal the NCOER. I feel the comments hold more weight than what selection is made of needs improvement or success etc. Again like othe rcomments if you are the rater you should know your Soldier.
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SFC Gary Fox
SFC Gary Fox
12 y
If the NCO passed the second then there is no need to mention the failure of the first attempt at all on the NCOER as the NCO did meet standards.
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CW2 Omt Chief
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Excellent question CSM and I too like Chief's response. Initially, I wanted to say that you mark a needs improvement, but a little further contemplation and I realized that the NCO has improved. I think you have to take into account the NCO's situation as well. As leaders, we have to know what's going on with our soldiers, both personally and professionally. Maybe this NCO was going through a rough patch in their personal life that caused them to temporarily drop their level of performance/effort. Knowing that they were able to overcome that and get back on the right track speaks volumes about their character and perseverance. 
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LTC J55 Plans Chief
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Raters comment on PERFORMANCE.  Senior Rater comments on POTENTIAL.  Thus, an accurate annotation of this NCO's performance from my perspective would be:  "Success" for improving from failure to passing.  Whether or not a BOARD reads the bullet has less to do with the most ACCURATE portayal of this NCOs performance during the rating period.

Furthermore, when this individual NCOER is compared against other NCOERs, the pattern becomes apparent.

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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
12 y
Sir, Sr Raters comment on both Performance and Potential as indicated in part Vc (Performance) and Vd (Potential) on the NCOER.
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LTC Field Artillery Officer
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Great question CSM....To answer you question, I think it can be any of the above.  As with this NCO (or Soldier or Officer for that matter), you have to look at more than just this one event. 


Was this NCO a substandard performer in everything they do and just happen to pass the AFPT / ABCP this one time, or were they an exceptional performer who happened to have one bad day when they took the APFT / ABCP?  How do they perform in every other aspect of their duty performance?  Are they constantly leading from the front or running from behind to try and catch up?


When I was a Battery Commander, I like to think I look at the total Soldier / NCO / Officer when making these decisions.  Of course, I was blessed with a phenomenal 1SG whom I'm proud to call a friend today that mentored and guided me to do the right thing when faced with these decisions.  

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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
12 y
You make a great point sir and I think you are trying to be fair in order to accurately assess the performance.

The difficulty becomes when perception creeps in and where you may think one Soldier still deserves a Success and another deserves a Needs Improvement (fairly in your mind), but they "feel" they are receiving didn't treatment for the "same" performance.

A lot of these types of situations really affect morale and the perception of fairness in a unit.
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SSG (ret) William Martin
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I have to ask myself, how would I want my NCOER to look with respects of doing things in an ethical and morally manner.
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
12 y
SGT Martin, when you asked yourself, what did yourself say?
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MSG Human Resources Specialist
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Edited 12 y ago
To me it depends on the NCOs prior performance in regards to the APFT/ABCP. If the NCO consistently passes both standards and then fails either one of the two test then corrects the deficiency before the end of the rating period then I would give the rated NCO a "Success" because they were in a passing status at the time of their thru date of their NCOER. If the NCO consistently has problems with either than I would give a "Needs Improvement" with a bullet comment that reflects the NCO consistent pass fail in regards to the APFT/ABCP.
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MSG Human Resources Specialist
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CSM Maynard - I have corrected my original post. I meant to state that a NCO who constantly has issues meeting or exceeding the standard in either of the two test would need to make considerable improvement to change to a NCO who consistently passes both test. Until I saw that change then the NCO would receive a "Needs Improvement" on that portion of their NCOER. I would have to look at the total Soldier concept to see if it would be a needs some or much improvement in that field. Sorry for the inaccuracy in my original post I should have reviewed it before posting to ensure my position was clear.
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SFC Petroleum Supply Specialist
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Your setting yourself up by picking and choosing who gets a reprieve. Just as I mentioned before n a comment if ur unit Plt squad or whoever see that you will give to your squared away soldier the same as jacked up Soldier your credibility will go a whole lot farther. We all know consequences once we assume leadership and the stage is big so if you can't hang then you gotta get that work. Don't put your self in a place of giving your career in the hands of that person who didn't meet the standard. Trust me it all gets out...how u helped SSG so & so but won't help the other SSG because Their not ur favorite. It happens all the time thinking your taking care of a NCO. the way you take care of a person is you be honest and let them grow from the adversity so they don't make same mistake again or assume as long as I'm square that I will always get the hook up. You grow from mistakes not cover ups. Plus last thought best believe if u fail your gonna get dealt with accordingly cause there going to say you know better so hold your NCO to same standard your being held to. 
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
12 y
SSG Mayfield - roger, thanks for clarifying/editing.

Now, you mention "whole Soldier" - we're talking specifically about individual performance in the area of physical fitness and military bearing. 

It's a little harder to assess "whole Soldier" as the objectives are fairly specific. Not impossible though, as we can consider intramural sports, races, etc and other demonstrations of military bearing.
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
12 y
SFC Bethea, great comment. And that is the whole point of why I brought up this discussion.

It's really less about whether a person deserves this or that, but about how do ensure that the perception of fairness is there because that leads to morale.

No doubt, maintaining a perception of fairness is hard when we as leaders use subjectivity in deciding who gets what.
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SSG Retired!!!
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if they 100% are a no-go thoughout the entire rating period, id put "needs improvement".

But going with that, you can tell when you first look at a Soldier if he is gonna be borderline on a APFT, so if you wait till 1 week before their thru date and finally give them an APFT, then your failing as a leader.

But, if you identify the problem in time, and give them time to fix themselves, they sould be fine and id give em a "success".

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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
12 y
SSG Maravi - roger, so what do you give the NCO who passes (80/80/80) all APFTs in a rating period? Success? 

So, in essence, your saying an NCO that meets the standard all the time is the same as an NCO who meets the standard most of the time.
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SSG Retired!!!
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12 y
CSM, 
In the plain situation I described above, and in the first part of your response, yes. I am not at all saying the second part of your statement. Of course there are countless other circumstances that would change how an NCO is going to be rated. 
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CSM Mike Maynard
CSM Mike Maynard
12 y
Roger SSG Maravi, I got the "whole Soldier concept" thing and "overall rating" thing, but we're talking specifically about one area on the NCOER that is supposed to be an assessment of their individual physical fitness and military bearing.
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CW3 Network Architect
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12 y
Which means, in our current environment, if someone has a bad day, their career is toast.  Is that really who we want to be?
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