Rp logo flat shadow
Command Post What is this?
Posted on Feb 16, 2016
SSG Lon Watson
152K
839
330
170
170
0
Avatar feed
Responses: 147
Votes
  • Newest
  • Oldest
  • Votes
GySgt John O'Donnell
9
9
0
Edited >1 y ago
SSG Watson makes a very clear and concise point that he is not "putting down" our Army brothers-in-arms / his branch of service, but he is identify a point of view based on his research and findings. Having read through the many comments, I came across the post by SSG Scott... to which I sent a reply (see below)
---------------------------------
SSG Scott (original post)
I suppose it depends on the MOS a soldier signed up for, yes we are all infantry first but let's be honest, I chose to drive trucks for a living over being an infantry man. I say that to say this, I am quite sure those in the Army that love or want an elite challenge are in the respected MOS to be able to do so i.e Infantry, Rangers ,Special Forces etc. etc.

My reply to SSG Scott,
Having read your comment, I think you and I are the most comparable to prove the point the author was making.
As you said, you chose to drive trucks for the Army instead of being an infantryman...and I made the same choice when I joined the Marine Corps. Having earned the title Marine, we realized that there is nothing more "respected" about one MOS over the other. We are equals no matter what the MOS (though there is bantering), each individual supports the mission objective, to achieve success and are trained / given opportunities as a "Marine" not an MOS. To this point, though my MOS is Motor Transport and I have served in the capacity throughout my career, I am also a Navy/Marine Corps Parachutist, Pathfinder, Marine Combat Instructor (at the School of Infantry), Fire-support coordinator, and Anti-Terrorism Officer, all of which are secondary to being "respected" as a Marine.
------------------------------------------------------------
I reposted this because in my opinion, this an excellent example of the point SSG Watson is trying to make. Myself and SSG Scott are the same MOS, but how we view our place (i.e. MOS respect within our service) is viewed through differing lenses. Marines identify as "Marines" first and foremost, not Infantry, Airborne, Special Ops, ect. Our warrior ethos are derived from each individual "earning the title" and maintaining the standard from that moment on with a common "collective spirit" no matter the occupation. No "Marine" is respected over another, from Private to General we are one, as Marines. Hence "Once a Marine, always a Marine", signifying our singular identity.
(9)
Comment
(0)
MSgt Roger Settlemyer
MSgt Roger Settlemyer
>1 y
Well Said Gunny......Semper Fi
(2)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
GySgt Michael Hafenbrack
7
7
0
One note to make on what is so far an excellent article, The note I wanted to make is the basic camaraderie within the Army and other branches. For instance, I travel quite a bit for my business and noticed while sitting in airports that Soldiers will walk right past another Soldier without acknowledging each other. Hell I can't go to Home Depot or anywhere without meeting a Marine and at least sharing a greeting but mostly it turns into about a 1/2 hour discussion. It doesn't matter when they served or how they served, Marines acknowledge Marines. It is strange that the other branches don't have that brotherhood. Besides you have to remember WE are all WE have when bullets go down range.

Semper Fi
Gysgt. Hafenbrack
USMC RET
(7)
Comment
(0)
SSG Lon Watson
SSG Lon Watson
>1 y
Agreed Gunny! I make a point to speak to all military people. Its a good thing to do.
(0)
Reply
(0)
PFC Ronald Watkins
PFC Ronald Watkins
>1 y
Since my family have served in every branch of the military I make it a point to engage every brother in arms in conversation. When I was in basic and AIT at Leonard Wood in1985 I was amazed at how much easier it was than I was expecting after hearing one of my older brothers who had trained several years prior at that same post. However, I am even more shocked at how much easier my son who trained recently at Ft. Benning seemed to have it. I,m a firm believer that every recruit should be subjected to a Hardening of the mind in order to stand strong in the hands of the enemy.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
MAJ Staff Officer
7
7
0
It comes down to how big you want the service to be. For an Army that is nearly 3 times as large as the Corps, it needs to allow in a bigger slice of the American population. Going by the cross section of society these days with a majority of Americans grotesquely obese, there isn't a big pool to choose from in the first place.
(7)
Comment
(0)
SSG Lon Watson
SSG Lon Watson
>1 y
Good point
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Capt Lance Gallardo
7
7
0
Freaking awesome analysis S/Sgt Watson. You have said so comprehensively what I have been trying to say here on RP with some of my posts lamenting why the Army does not try to make Army Basic training more like Marine Corps Boot Camp. The Army trains you to be a soldier at Basic training, while the Marine Corps makes Marines at Boot Camp. It is also about symbology, and mysticism as you pointed out with the EGA Ceremony following the Crucible and The Marines have been shameless in shoplifting the Knighting Ceremony in some of their Recruiting Ads. Napolean said that men would fight better and even die these for these little colored ribbons (combat awards and decorations and other symbols of Gallantry in combat). It is kind of scary when you think about it, but only the Waffen SS and the SS Ceremonies in the last 70 years cloaked themselves in the symbology and mysticism, like the Marine Corps does, and despite their Evilness, the Waffen SS were generally considered the among the best and most elite ground infantry, with high morale and fighting spirit in ground combat. The Marines fight like Elite units because they believe they are an Elite Fighting force, and train harder and hold themselves to a higher self-imposed standard, because they have a chip on their shoulder and all Marines know that the day the Marines can no longer deliver on what they promise they can do for the American People, is the day the Marine Corps will be disbanded.

When we were training very seriously for combat in Gulf War I at The Basic School, and lawyers and pilot wannabes were having their contracts for their MOSes voided and they were being sent to combat MOS Schools (IOC., Tank School, and Arty School, and CSS) we got a Visit from some Frozen Chosin Marine Corps 1st Division Vets, who told us that as scared as they were of dying or being horribly wounded in the "fighting retreat to the coast and evacuation" what else was on their minds??? They did not want to go down in the History Books as the FIRST and ONLY Marine Corps Division to surrender en mass to surrender to an enemy force. Let that sink in for a moment.

That was the same fighting spirit that the 101st Airborne Acting CG McAuliffe, expressed in his Reply Note and one line answer to the Krauts when they asked him to surrender his division at Bastogne - NUTS!
Or as BG Chesty Puller said in a similar situation:
We're surrounded.
That simplifies our problem of getting to these people and killing them.
Now we can fire in any direction,
those bastards won't get away this time!
And Major General Oliver Smith, CG, First Marine Division and all UN Forces at The Frozen Chosin Resevoir Battle of the Korean War:

Retreat, hell!
We're attacking in a different direction!

-When the Communist Chinese threw 270,000 troops into the Korean War, numerous U.N. divisions were overrun. Eight Chinese divisions engaged the 1st Marine Division. In the face of "General Winter" and overwhelming numerical superiority, the division concentrated promptly, rescued and evacuated surviving remnants of adjacent, less ready Army formations, and commenced one of the greatest marches of American history, from Chosin Reservoir to the sea.

Sixteen days later, having brought down its dead, saved its equipment, and rescued three Army battalions, the 1st Marine Division - supported by the 1st Marine Wing - reached the sea with high morale and in fighting order. The division had shattered the Chinese Communist Forces 9th Army Group, killed at least 25,000 Chinese, and wounded more than 12,500.

Every Marine reads about, hears about, and ingests these Living History examples of what Marines before them have done and are capable of doing. The Battle of Bealleu Wood in WWI where the Marines won their nickname of Devil Dog (Teufel Hunden in German), Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, The Frozen Chosin Reservoir battle in Korea, The Marines in Vietnam at Hue City or their defense in the Battle of Khe Sanh, Gulf War I, the Invasion of Iraq in 2003, the battle for Falluja in 2004, and their many engagements in Afghanistan during Operation Enduring Freedom.

Every Marine understands that they have inherited the success of the Marines who have come before them, and they are instilled with the idea that it would be better to be dead than let the Marines who have come before them down. It is in many ways just like that line from the movie a Few Good Men, Marines ARE fanatical about being Marines. They are also fanatical about improving the Marine Corps in any way, small or large, and they learn about the innovators and Mavericks who have served in the Marine Corps, and there is an active intellectual debate and discussion, not just in the Professional Journal, The Marine Corps Gazette, but at squad, platoon and company levels, and at the professional Development Schools for Marine Officers from Amphibious War College to Command and Staff College and the Naval War College about what changes need to be made to keep the Marine Corps strong and "The Best." This starts with the expensive commitment to send all Marine Officers through The Basic School's Basic Officer Course, Warrant and regular/reserve Commissioned Officers all have to graduate from TBS to go to flight school, or in my case, Naval Justice School or whatever their follow on MOS school is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chosin_Reservoir
(7)
Comment
(0)
Capt Lance Gallardo
Capt Lance Gallardo
>1 y
My father's first response (joining the Navy's Army") was followed by his second response to my decision to join the Marines: "Way too Do'er Manure!" I am pretty sure my Dad, never really accepted my decision to Go Marine. Although we are both "sister services" under the Department of the Navy" the Marines and Navy have at times had all the love of a Shotgun Marriage for each other. About the only time I see the two "Sea Services" really join ranks is one time a year for the annual Army/Navy football game pitting the Naval Academy's Midshipmen football team against the Westpoint Cadets of the US Army USMA. Then its Beat Army! The rest of the time, not too much love there.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Capt Lance Gallardo
Capt Lance Gallardo
>1 y
SSG Lon Watson you are always going to get some hater-aid when you challenge assumptions or put forth an idea that questions the status quo. Try not to take it personally. Many of the responses to your post, even the negative ones, have a kernal of truth and an important point of view that you need to read. I have enjoyed the "negative" responses to your post as much as the positive responses. Understanding the differences in philosophies and end goals of what the Army seeks to accomplish with its recruits that graduate from the service support MOSes BCT (I vaguely understood that you go to different BCTs at different Army bases, based upon your end MOS in the Army vs the Infantry 11B MOS and combat arms MOS BCT schools is very illuminating for someone who only know the one size fits all approach that the Marine Corps uses to make and mint Marines.

It would be really interesting to see when the Army instituted the different BCTs tailored for the different end MOSes, and see how (or if) the Army changed in some perceptible and measurable way when they got away from a standardized BCT that had the exact same standards of training for its recruits to meet in order to graduate. My wild guess it this occurred when the army transitioned away from draftee accessions to the AVF in the early 1970s and the Army had a really hard time recruiting and graduating a sufficient number of recruits to maintain its recruiting goals.
(0)
Reply
(0)
LCpl Darrell J. Farley Jr.
LCpl Darrell J. Farley Jr.
>1 y
Capt Lance Gallardo my Father was a Sergeant of Marines in ANGLICO, assigned to 1/7 he described an icy frozen Hell no matter what uniform you wore!
(0)
Reply
(0)
LCpl Darrell J. Farley Jr.
LCpl Darrell J. Farley Jr.
>1 y
Capt Lance Gallardo don’t know about that no love. On Guam some Squids from our ship were getting schooled by some Air Bags (12 Air Farts against 5 Sailors), me and my crew (Amtrakers) evened up the odds. My driver a big ol Texan announced, Those are our Squids!!! Hands off! And we waded into the fray!!! The Navy Marine Combat Team shined brightly that night!
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Audwin Scott
7
7
0
I suppose it depends on the MOS a soldier signed up for, yes we are all infantry first but let's be honest, I chose to drive trucks for a living over being an infantry man. I say that to say this, I am quite sure those in the Army that love or want an elite challenge are in the respected MOS to be able to do so i.e Infantry, Rangers ,Special Forces etc. etc.
(7)
Comment
(0)
MSG Mechanic 2nd
MSG (Join to see)
>1 y
even the army now is you are a rifle man first and MOS second, my mos 68wm6, in our new training step one return fire to gain supioity then treat
(1)
Reply
(0)
GySgt John O'Donnell
GySgt John O'Donnell
>1 y
SSG Audwin Scott - Hey brother, by no means am I attempting to "water-down" yours or anyone's service, that was not my intent in the comment I made. We are both "protector's of freedom" in and out of uniform. My point was not meant to divided, but to provide the best relative comparison towards the point being made by SSG Watson.
(1)
Reply
(0)
SSG Audwin Scott
SSG Audwin Scott
>1 y
GySgt John O'Donnell - I didn't take it that way at all, I was basically adding to the post comments of my views. So you and I are good.
(3)
Reply
(0)
GySgt John O'Donnell
GySgt John O'Donnell
>1 y
SSG Audwin Scott - Thanks brother, One Team -One Fight!! Semper Fi.
(2)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
CAPT Kevin B.
7
7
0
Edited >1 y ago
Interesting read. I'm much more familiar with the Marine side. What the two systems do is create a unique culture. Question that is begged is it optimal? I'd suspect the leadership on both sides think so. Or better yet, optimal given what is given to them as raw material. Marines need a few, the Army many, hence have to tap the fat part of the bell curve more. It appears they have "softened" a bit to reduce the early bail out rate. Who knows.

That said, I remember being a "Beast" and couldn't be called Cadet until the end of summer.
(7)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SGT Driver
6
6
0
Something that has always gotten under my skin is when I hear soldiers talk about how the Marines are better. "The Marines have better this, that and the other thing. The Army should do it that way." If that was what you wanted you should have gone and joined the Marines. The Army and the Marine Corps are two different services that (used to, at least) have two fundamentally different purposes. They are naturally going to do things differently. And as for Marines that left the Corps and joined the Army, if the Marines are so much better than the Army why did you leave?
(6)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
MSG Mechanic 2nd
6
6
0
i was navy corpsman 85-87 with the Marines, went through the crash course at Camp Johnson, NC FMSS. After getting my assignment went through the steps to become FMF, made it. After leaving AD went Navy Reserves, it sucked so I thought I'd give the Army a chance, culture shock does'nt even come close, there is diffinately a difference between USMC and USA, but I stuck it out 27 years, my success in the USAR was because of my time with the USMC, my success in the civilian world is also attributed to the Corps, I work in a factory and see way too many young lives expecting something for nothing, and as I got along in my USAR career I saw the same, time out cards in basic, cant cuss out soldiers, cant smoke soldiers, counselling, counselling and more counselling, if you if you dont do it right then it starts over, waist of time and paper. My NCO's could'nt understand that thier job is'nt just one weekend a month 2 weeks of the year, once drill over thier job done, much wasted time at drills doing what could've been done at home.
(6)
Comment
(0)
MSG Mechanic 2nd
MSG (Join to see)
>1 y
thank you sir
(0)
Reply
(0)
MSgt Roger Settlemyer
MSgt Roger Settlemyer
>1 y
It sure looks funny seeing things with a different point of view.
(0)
Reply
(0)
MSG Mechanic 2nd
MSG (Join to see)
>1 y
MSgt Roger Settlemyer - yes it does, should've stayed fmf corpsman active duty
(1)
Reply
(0)
LCpl Darrell J. Farley Jr.
LCpl Darrell J. Farley Jr.
>1 y
MSG (Join to see) Corpsman Up!!! Gotta Love the Doc!!! Our Doc rode my Hog B-25 2nd Plt B Co
3rd AAV Bn 1st MAR DIV 3rd FSSG!!!
The Doc had better gear than the crew!!! Sandbags under his seat, new Body Armor,(Vietnam issue in 1983) new CVC Helmet And comms, And 2 sets of seat pads!!! Even scrounged a field desk for him to keep our shotcards nice and safe!!! (Woe be unto the Jarhead what pisses off the DOC!!! Marine, I can’t find your shot card!! Come see me after chow!”
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Avenger Crew Member
5
5
0
This is the best FICTION that I have read in some time! Are you kidding me? I'm not sure what Army you were in, but it wasn't the same Army I was in.
(5)
Comment
(0)
SSG Avenger Crew Member
SSG (Join to see)
>1 y
Justifying, no. Just merely stating that there are some. Like there are some in the Marines, but due to the shear size of the Army compared to the Corps.. one would see more numbers from the Army. I would never support sub-standards, but I also don't just jump on a bandwagon because people want to bash the branch they joined!!!
(1)
Reply
(0)
CPL(P) Intelligence Analyst
CPL(P) (Join to see)
>1 y
Speaking as an SF enabler who lives with ADA guys, there are at least three Armies. The big, non-Airborne Army, that thinks it's hard and talks bad about anyone who disagrees. That includes the ADA guys I live with, who mess with our cars when we're not around because they don't like guys with long hair and civilian clothes living in their barracks and it's the only way they can cause us grief... And these are the Bragg ADA guys, who are probably a cut above the rest by virtue of being associated with the 82d.

Then there's the 82d, where I spent the last two years. It lives up to the reputation, and while there's a lot of Kool-aid over there, my impression of Division is that the people speaking poorly of it are either long-haired pipe-swingers or jealous.

And the last Army is SOF, which is much more like the 82d than urban legend says. Even the guys I know who came from behind the fence act like Division guys, just generally more mature.

I wouldn't want to trust my life to the first Army, but I've never served in it. I've only served in the other two.

That being said, the first Army is a maneuver force where individual Soldiers do not, and rarely ever will, make a difference. The first Army is designed to fight at an operational/strategic level, using companies and battalions as maneuver elements in fights conducted by brigade or larger elements. The first Army uses armored divisions to smash the enemy, and motorized and mechanized infantry to clean up; everyone else there - even dismounted infantry - is an enabler.

The second Army, the airborne and air assault army, is designed to fight in squads, platoons, and companies, with battalions performing roles that would be filled by brigades in the first Army. Everyone who is not a light infantryman is an enabler. This Army has (in general) significantly higher standards of personal discipline because it has to: junior soldiers are much more likely to end up in roles that a higher-ranking individual would normally fill - who knows if an NCO's going to end up in every LGOP?

The third Army is, or should be, the "grownup" army and is a force of individuals working together as teams. It is not and does not have maneuver elements, and is entirely enablers with the exception of a few direct-action forces (75th; SEALs; SMU). The third Army is also a joint force, so it's not really an Army.

The Marines are like the second Army, if the second Army never had to swap personnel with the first.

Just my .02. It's purely opinion and a little doctrine.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SSG Avenger Crew Member
SSG (Join to see)
>1 y
I am an ADA guy, and I consider myself as well as the Soldiers that I led and mentored to be among the best of all Armies you mentioned. I am a Veteran now, but I still uphold the principles and discipline that I lived by on AD. You have varying levels of responsibility depending on your rank, but regardless of rank or job title a professional is a professional.
(0)
Reply
(0)
CPL(P) Intelligence Analyst
CPL(P) (Join to see)
>1 y
SSG Duke Hall l, I'm not sure I clearly communicated what I was saying then. Since this thread isn't about doctrine I'll keep it short. Hit me up if you want to talk about it and avoid cluttering this thing up; I'm sure we have plenty to learn from each other.

To clarify, I was specifically referring to a conventional, combined-arms, force-on-force fight.

- Light units don't have 'devastating' firepower, and aren't designed to engage tanks. FM 3-90 lays out the intent of the IBCT, SBCT, and ABCT. Paragraph 1-1 describes the responsibilities of the IBCT.
- I don't think I said ABN and AASLT units aren't maneuver units; I said they maneuver differently.
- ABN/AASLT fight at smaller levels because it's almost impossible for brigades and divisions to maintain cohesion after an airborne assault. That's what LGOPs are for. Normally, a platoon should never engage by itself, with no support, in a conventional fight, but LGOPs don't really have a choice.
- Okay, battalions perform battalion roles. The role of an airborne battalion is not the same as the role of a non-airborne battalion because only ABN/AASLT units can perform vertical envelopment. Normally a battalion shouldn't operate by itself because battalions (except BTFs) don't have the resources to effectively engage a combined-arms threat. ABN/AASLT battalions don't have much of a choice.
- AFG and Iraq aren't conventional fights, so the doctrine used there is obviously not the same as for a force-on-force engagement.

As far as doctrine goes, I'm looking at FM 3-90 (the BCT); FM 3-99 (Airborne Operations); and the old FM 7-100 series that refer to Soviet (and now OPFOR) tactics. The old FMs haven't been updated, but the basis of Soviet combined-arms operations haven't changed either, except to incorporate UW in Crimea.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
LTC Ed Kennedy
4
4
0
Edited 9 y ago
GREAT article! The Marines have "broken the code". The Army will continue to cater to the lowest common denominator and not raise the standards. If the standards were raised, it might hurt someone's feelings and we don't want to do that. When I went through BCT during Vietnam, the sergeants training us were tough and expected high standards but the rot in discipline had begun with the lawyers getting involved. It's ten times worse today. Today we have what former military writer Hackworth called "Camp Snoopy" ---- summer camp style "challenges" instead of tough training. The NCOs know what to do but are hobbled by PC in the Army.
(4)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
LtCol Logistics Officer
4
4
0
Edited 9 y ago
There is always room in the Army to tighten up just like in any other service. I've been a student of Army schools on numerous occasions and was impressed by the professionalism, engagement and intellect of the Army officers I was learning along side with. I also served in both Iraq and Afghanistan along side them, and depended on them numerous occasions. I was never let down. This is "my Army" too...and I'm just as proud of their service as I am the fellow Marines I serve with. I for one would like to see them tighten up on the discipline (in this case entry level training) and on the weight standards. The rest will/would fall into place. Nothing but respect for them though...they are our brothers, and I'd share a foxhole with any of them any time, any place, as I know they'd have my back as I would have theirs in a firefight. Just look at the population of the Medal of Honor recipients and numerable successes, up to and including the capture of Saddaam Hussein. I've got nothing but respect for our fellow green warriors.
(4)
Comment
(0)
SPC Cesar Freytes
SPC Cesar Freytes
6 y
The Marines have a disciplinary problem, that's why the Japanese want them out of Okinawa, rape and assault to minor children for you army asses that want to be Marines JOIN THE FRINKING MARINES. I Don't get it
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Dee Emswiler
4
4
0
Why is this a better way to train? What are the statistics to back it up. How many more % marines get out or stay in after their first enlistment. What is the cost of training a soldier vs. a Marine? How does that make them more effective on today's battle field where most combat is fought at a distance with jets, tanks, artillery, and Multiple Launch Rocket systems? The perception that they think they are better doesn't make them better. They are trained for their job which is small arms combat, as are Special Forces, Delta and Rangers. But if you need a electronics technician to fix communications systems during the mother of all battles or a highly skilled interpreter to translate Arabic and decode the hidden meaning in a terrorist transmission that will save many civilian lives, you don't want an ground pounder who can say Sir Yes Sir. You want a technically trained expert who stayed in the Army for multiple years to hone their craft and increase their knowledge.
(4)
Comment
(0)
SSG Lon Watson
SSG Lon Watson
9 y
You've missed my point entirely. It's not about cost, technology, or equipment. It's about an ethos!
(0)
Reply
(0)
SFC Marcus Belt
SFC Marcus Belt
9 y
SSG Lon Watson - It's ALWAYS about cost, man!
(0)
Reply
(0)
CPL Clyde Willis
CPL Clyde Willis
>1 y
SSG Lon Watson I think you missed the point. It has to be about the cost. Also, what about the other statistics? Have you seen them?
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SGT Richard H.
4
4
0
SSG Lon Watson Having served first as a Marine, then as a soldier, I'm with you all the way on this one. A couple of things I'd sharpen to a finer point, though:
first, the Army 9-10 weeks and the Marine Corps 13 weeks are not exactly accomplishing the same thing. The Marine Corps 13 weeks results in every Marine being a basic Infantryman, and future MOS training comes on top of that, so I would argue the point about the luxury of time. Army Infantry OSUT is 13 weeks. I'd relate it to that instead of just a plain-jane 10 week boot camp. Time is of the essence for EVERYTHING in Marine Corps Basic training. Also, who told you that Marine Recruits get 30 seconds to put on their pants (Trousers)?? Hell, if they had given me 30 seconds to put on my trousers, I could have slept another 20 seconds!
(4)
Comment
(0)
Cpl D L Parker
Cpl D L Parker
>1 y
Hell, if they had given me 30 seconds to put on my trousers, I could have slept another 20 seconds!...GOOD ONE :-D
(1)
Reply
(0)
GySgt Infantry Unit Leader
GySgt (Join to see)
>1 y
Marine Boot camp does not create basic Infantrymen - it creates basically trained Marines with a smidge of the basics on Infantry common skills. When a Marine goes to the School of Infantry the first (roughly) two weeks are the complete Basic Infantryman skills package creating 0300 Marines and then the remainder of the school is learning their specific MOS (0311, etc). But I am picking up what you are putting down - and just thought to add to your post.
(1)
Reply
(0)
SGT Richard H.
SGT Richard H.
>1 y
GySgt (Join to see) - I definitely understand where you're coming from, and I was always aware that Marines that would actually serve in an Infantry unit would go on to an MOS Specific school...however, my records jacket still calls my primary MOS 0300 (my duty MOS was 6531). This may well have changed to some degree since I went to basic almost 33 years ago (before they called the Pendleton phase "crucible"), but I'm sure the USMC philosophy of "everyone's a grunt first" hasn't changed.
At any rate, the point of my post was to relate it to the army, which has a format of a 13 week OSUT (one station unit training) for Infantry which is 8 weeks of basic and the remainder of Infantry skills training. I didn't go to Army basic or AIT, but I can tell you that coming from a USMC aviation MOS going to the Army as an 11B, my "new guy" Infantry skills were at least equal to most guys I ran across who were coming out of Army Infantry OSUT.
(3)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Sgt Joe LaBranche
4
4
0
The Marine Corps breaks you down as an individual, to build you up as part of a team. This process makes you no less or more important than the lowest member of the team.
The Corps instills a sense of confidence and invisibility in every Marine. You are trained to believe there is nothing you can't achieve or accomplish, no matter how difficult the situation. You adapt, improvise, and overcome!
It doesn't mattet if we are the best or if anyone else thinks we sre the best; we know and believe we are the best and will accept any challenge.
There is something special about the title, United States Marine!
(4)
Comment
(0)
Sgt Field Radio Operator
Sgt (Join to see)
9 y
Sgt Joe LaBranche Joe, the good thing is that the title is forever. Once a Marine, Always a Marine.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Sgt Tom Cunnally
4
4
0
I have been out of the military too many years to add to this discussion about the Army. But back in the '50s & 60s we Marines did not have a very high opinion of the National Guard. However a few years ago I was a volunteer fitness trainer working with the Wounded Warriors Program for the VA . All of the guys were in the National Guard and we had them try a new program that included a Green Diet, Cardio Exercise and Spirituality to combat PTSD, and Chronic Depression. I really had a lot of respect for these guys who had served multiple tours in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Some had serious issues. And they all thought the VA recommended Green Diet was cruel and unusual punishment. I think they enjoyed having a Trainer who was much older than they were and we built a pretty good repoire .. They nicknamed me "The Ole Sarge" and I think this program did help but I was not privy to their quesionaires or physical exams. This program was designed by Stanford Medical University and used by the VA in Palo Alto and in Minneapolis... The results have been favorable because the VA wants to get some PTSD patients off medications. And this program was a substitute because some medications had advers side effects including suicide or mixing the meds with alcohol...
(4)
Comment
(0)
MSgt Roger Settlemyer
MSgt Roger Settlemyer
>1 y
Well Done Marine.................Simper Fi
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Sgt Nick Marshall
4
4
0
No disrespect to the army, but I did not enjoy working with them, they tended to be slovenly and lazy. Working with the Royal Marines was a pleasure, very professional and incredibly fit.
(4)
Comment
(0)
SSG Environmental Specialist
SSG (Join to see)
>1 y
Seems funny, I trained with Marine's and a few of them are exactly like you describe the army, I tend not to lump a people into one category because of a few. In Afghanistan I worked with some outstanding Marines, Air Force and Navy along with a lot of NATO troops being in a Liaison team. I would never disrespect any of the service because of a couple of bad apples.
(1)
Reply
(0)
SPC(P) Jay Heenan
SPC(P) Jay Heenan
>1 y
Sgt Nick Marshall
"...No disrespect to the Army, but I did not enjoy working with them, they tended to be slovenly and lazy..."
You just grouped all Soldiers into a "slovenly and lazy" group, but you preface your statement by saying, "No disrespect to the army". How is anyone able to deduct anything other than disrespect?
(2)
Reply
(0)
Sgt Nick Marshall
Sgt Nick Marshall
>1 y
SPC(P) Jay Heenan - I only with a few units, I'm sure it didnt represent the Army as an entirety, (at least I hope not!)
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SPC(P) Jay Heenan
4
4
0
Interesting read indeed. Why did you join the Army? You clearly have a love affair with the Marines...I am not saying it is a bad thing, but you wrote this big article (as a U.S. Soldier) talking about how the Marines are better. Maybe this is part of the reason you think that we are "Army wrong". I was stationed on MCB, and I promise that there are plenty of 'ate up' Marines as well. Personally, I think that you are being part of the problem and not the solution to your own posting.
(4)
Comment
(0)
SGT Matthew Einsla
SGT Matthew Einsla
>1 y
SFC Derrick Graves - Really, I met so many former marines in the Army. If they loved it so much they wouldn't have left in the first place.
(1)
Reply
(0)
SFC Derrick Graves
SFC Derrick Graves
>1 y
Sgt (Verify To See) - Lame excuse to avoid the truth. That's a typical a response I would expect from a member of an organization where most of the members are insecure and have to lash out to make others acknowledge their identity.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SPC(P) Jay Heenan
SPC(P) Jay Heenan
>1 y
Sgt Richard Buckner SFC Derrick Graves
Gentlemen, we are all brothers and sisters! Poking fun at other services is okay, let's not make it personal.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SFC Derrick Graves
SFC Derrick Graves
>1 y
Sgt (Verify To See) - I also did my 20 and have nothing to be ashamed of either. I see you still suffer from that egotism just like that Colonel. But make no mistake the Army will endure like it always has despite the lip service from a few insecure folks
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
1SG Paul Beal
3
3
0
When you’re wounded and that Dustoff bird is coming in, I’ll bet you don’t care how well that medic coming down the hoist and the crewchief running can march. Or how tough the reception station was on those two warrant officers up front. Beal, 1SG. 4/421 Med Co (AA)
(3)
Comment
(0)
SSG Lon Watson
SSG Lon Watson
>1 y
First sergeant you missed the whole point. We’re training Spartans.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Marcus Belt
3
3
0
So you're asking why the Army can't make EVERY non-combat MOS like every Marine?

The same reasons as always: time and money. This really can't be an issue you're having, right? I mean, you see where our budgets are going, and the fact remains that nobody asks the Human Resources Specialist or Paralegal to walk a combat patrol anymore than I'd ask an 11B to process court martial proceedings. Does every MOS need to be proficient with basic Soldier skills and tasks? Of course, but the entire USMC is built around expeditionary warfare, whereas, we have a Corps within the Army (XVIII Airborne) for that purpose, and within the legacy divisions of that formation, I defy you to show a lack of discipline, tactical and technical expertise and esprit de corps.

And our special operations capabilities AND capacity are far larger, which we manage to achieve despite your assertion that our initial entry system is flawed.

Next question.
(3)
Comment
(0)
SSG Lon Watson
SSG Lon Watson
9 y
No sir you've missed my point. I'm not talking about the combat skills of the clerks or support personnel. I'm talking about discipline. There is little or no discipline in support units/personnel. In the Marines corps and admin clerk has a high level of bearing and discipline. And the marines DO NOT start off with higher caliber applicants. They mold marines in a fiery furnace. Our mentality in the army is different. Changing our mentality costs nothing.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SFC Marcus Belt
SFC Marcus Belt
9 y
SSG Lon Watson - Your information is faulty: we let candidates into the Army with waivers that wouldn't be accepted into the Marines. Higher caliber? I won't day that because some, no, MOST (!) of those Soldiers go on to do their jobs admirably and honorably.

"...mold Marines in a fiery furnace..." Right. So your argument is that we need to make Basic suck more so that I get a bunch of brainwashed primates (with opposable thumbs and M4s) who are incapable of thinking independently?

Maybe I'm biased, as I AM a part of the Airborne and SOF communities, and am an alum of the 82d Airborne, but I don't need Soldiers who can't think. I train and expect Soldiers to be able to know and understand their operational environments and be able to deal with the political implications of our actions.

We have to train Soldiers for chess, not checkers, and you're talking about a perceived lack of "hooah" among support MOSs?

C'mon man. Those days are over.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SGM Frederic Smith
3
3
0
I'm glad to see that someone has recognized the Army has become "One Big Social Experiment" by Civilians and Politicians through the eyes of someone from the outside looking in!!!
(3)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
Sgt Infantryman
3
3
0
you nailed it! Every Marine is a rifleman. A soldier is defined by the MOS it seems.
(3)
Comment
(0)
CPO Steelworker
CPO (Join to see)
9 y
You know what, I have read all the comments, and was not going to make one due to my being in the Navy, and no big dog in this fight. I do how ever understand some as I am in a part of the Navy that has some warrior spirit and Esprit decor, and we get that from Marines as we are attached to them all the time, and we have gunny cadre in all NMCB's Battalions, and they run the Military Tactic side of our training.This is why we are set up like Marines as in Company, Platoons, SQD's and Fire teams and take pride in that Marine ethos every where we go. We even separate ourselves from what we call the fleet side Navy and the Navy fights with us all the time about our Marine Corps attitude. I think if the Navy has their way and takes that Marine style from us we will not be the same US Navy Seabees we have been for over 75 years. I did not mean to rant but I understand when you sya that you can always say you are a Marine when asked, because I always say I am a Seabee not I was in the Navy, I take pride in my community, as I know we have pride about being a little different from other Sailors. When fleet support guys come to us they say I didn't join the Navy to be in the Marines, because what we do is some what in line with that warrior pride, they ether end up becoming like us and take back to the fleet, or they hate us and get out of Navy, or go back pissed off, but I will put money on the fact that their military bearing has changed some what. I will also say we do kind of indoctrinate them into that Seabee sprite and attitude, that some what comes form the Marine Cadres that train us.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Sgt Lonnie Rush
3
3
0
You have an idea of what some of the training is but you missed a lot. Combat training for Marines starts almost right away. You have hand to hand dills. Used to be called line training and now it's the martial arts training. Pugil Stick fighting that simulates bayonet fighting is one of the first platoon on platoon events we do. We also learn to rappel form a tower and a hell hole. There is the obstacle course and confidence course. There are classes on first-aid, weapons, fortified positions, land nav., and history. There is guard duty, general orders, code of conduct and they must all be memorized. Some of this may be what you call indoctrination but a lot of it applies to all services. It is just not taught until other services get to a school after basic. There is so much training and it is constantly GO, GO, GO, because that is the only way to learn it all in 3 months. Like you said it is not just teaching it is indoctrination.
(3)
Comment
(0)
SSG Lon Watson
SSG Lon Watson
>1 y
No I agree you guys learn combat tasks, but the army teaches the advanced stuff too early. Stuff you guys get at MCT. And they do it at the expense of the basics. I think you guys train a lower number of tasks, but you master those few tasks. The army tries to make you jack of all trades in 9 weeks.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SSG Lon Watson
SSG Lon Watson
>1 y
Did you miss the part of the article where I mention that stuff? But it’s still indoctrination not training tasks. The problem in the arm is we don’t spend enough time endoctrinating.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
1SG Myron Pullum, MBA
3
3
0
US Army BCT 1973 @ Fort Dix, NJ. I don't remember how long basic was back then but some of the stuff I saw and experienced as a troop soundly contradicts what you're saying. Maybe things got "softer" years later. But we averaged one or two AWOLs per week. And I pitied your ass if you were captured and returned to duty. Yeah son, they put their hands on you! No love taps here, bro
(3)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Military Police
3
3
0
Great read, I have worked with Marines, Navy and Airforce. I have noticed in all branches there are some flaws. Very interesting read I would have never looked at it from that point of view. Love all my brothers and sisters in all branches. One team one fight.
(3)
Comment
(0)
SSG Lon Watson
SSG Lon Watson
>1 y
You're a good man Rick!
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SGT Ben Keen
3
3
0
SSG Lon Watson - I waited to form my thoughts before responding to your post, but I think you bring up some great points yet discount others. First, let me tell you where I'm coming from on all this. I joined the Army in 1999. I attended basic training at "Relaxin' Jackson" that summer. My BCT platoon was made of mainly split-option reservists. While my memory has been messed up due to my accident in Iraq during my first deployment there as part of 1 Brigade Combat Team of the 101st Airborne Division in early 2003, I remember two things about my time in basic training.

The first thing I remember are the fire ants. Those little bastards were every where! In fact, I really don't remember not seeing one anywhere we went. One time, our Drill SGTs came out to inspect that our canteens were full of water and because several members of platoon had canteens that weren't totally topped off as instructed, we all ended up doing push ups. I remember looking down at my hands that were then covered with these small, painful jerks.

The second thing I remember is SSG Moran. He was our platoon's senior Drill Sergeant. He, like you, was involved in several deployments and like you, felt the need to instill the basics into us. Yes, he followed the doctrine as given to him but it seemed like our Platoon did everything differently. He, and the other drill sergeants in the platoon, were hard but fair. Completing a task was not only expected but demanded. If you failed to complete the task, you went to the end of the line and did it again. This went for everything. From marksmanship to shinning boots to making bed; nothing was done until they said it was done. It sucked at the time but through out my short 8.5 years in the Army, I remained thankful for this because I took to the units I was assigned and thankfully, I was always part of an effective team every where I went.

Yes, I can agree that my experience and the way I took it was not the norm. Yes, I agree that there are some much needed improvements needed not just in the Army but across the DoD when it comes to training. But I think the biggest the hurdle we as a collective face is this notion of a "new Army" or "today's Army". Just do a quick search on here. You'll see post after post after post asking "what is wrong with today's Army". To which my answer is and will remain this. The Army is a reflection of it's leadership; from the ones that wear stars to the ones that wear chevrons, the culture of the military is placed in our hands. We, the leaders, are the ones that shape "today's Army". We are the standard, the backbone of our beloved Army. The standards change if and only when we allow them to change.
(3)
Comment
(0)
SSG Lon Watson
SSG Lon Watson
>1 y
Truth
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
CW3 Kevin Storm
3
3
0
Some things I agree with you on, basic training being one of them. But I would point all of the services take the short route to basic training and AIT. When we send soldiers or marines to 8-10-12-14 weeks of Basic then send them to three weeks of AIT, what did we create? A problem in the making. What is the quality of a truck driver who learns nothing but a 2.5 ton truck for four weeks?
Or 5 week artillery school. We preach safety, we pay lip service to maintenance, then are flabbergasted with our piss poor results.

I remember reading that the British basic training is 6 months long, they belong to a regiment their whole career. The Army plays some sort of game with regiments, here wear a crest, you belong to this regiment (what is that about anyways?). We have some real regiments, but by and large we don't have that, so do away with it once and for all.

Yes the Corp has a lot of pride, no doubt about it, but what is the incidence of offenses off post? Divorce factors, Anger management issues, UCMJ problems, how many BCD's are issued in the Corps?. Those are also indicators, and not good ones. Being treated like a subservient turd is not what a lot of people like for years on end. Not that Army doesn't have its own issues, because we do. The Corps does something right, and I am sure there are affair number behind that anchor globe and eagle who wish they had it a little better than how they are being treated then or now.
(3)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Lon Watson
3
3
0
ok I'm getting pummelled, but if you read the points you'll see what I was saying. This is corrective action....nothing more. Watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNn9H1LR2Tw
(3)
Comment
(0)
SSG Lon Watson
SSG Lon Watson
>1 y
(1)
Reply
(0)
SPC(P) Jay Heenan
SPC(P) Jay Heenan
>1 y
SSG Lon Watson
Hahaha, LOVED the Marine DS part, it reminded me of my basic and AIT when I went through way back in '87, only I used to get slapped and kicked.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Capt Jeff S.
3
3
0
Shouldn't this discussion be elsewhere? Honestly what does it have to do with the Marines?!!
(3)
Comment
(0)
Capt Jeff S.
Capt Jeff S.
>1 y
Who is your editor?
(0)
Reply
(0)
Capt Jeff S.
Capt Jeff S.
>1 y
SSG (Join to see) - It just seems odd that an Army guy would whine about the Army's training and elevate Marine training, and not put their constructive critique in an Army forum where the audience would most benefit from the critique.
(1)
Reply
(0)
SSG Avenger Crew Member
SSG (Join to see)
>1 y
Capt Jeff S. - I could not agree more!
(1)
Reply
(0)
SFC Derrick Graves
SFC Derrick Graves
>1 y
As I said in my earlier comment the author didn't have the courage to bring these criticisms to the Army leadership during his supposedly 21 years in the Army. Makes me question what kind of values this guy had when he was on active duty. But as a retired veteran myself I'm going to wish him well and hopes he enjoys that retirement check he earned from the United States Army!
(2)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SPC Janet Roush
2
2
0
I agree with everything you said. I don't understand why the Army has gone so soft. It was starting down that path when I was in the Army in the 80's but nothing like it is now. It's a shame.
(2)
Comment
(0)
SSG Eric Blue
SSG Eric Blue
5 y
The rumor going around about THAT when I was PV2 Blue was that Gen Eric Shinseki, the Army Chief Of Staff at the time, was butt-hurt about how hard things were for him when he came through. The rumor was that HE changed it to the direction in which it's now going. Again, a rumor. Not sure how true it was or is.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
1SG James Kelly
2
2
0
Yeah I like Marines too; used to teach them.
Master Gunner Instructor.
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small

Join nearly 2 million former and current members of the US military, just like you.