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Today, I may make some people mad. But what I want to address is vitally important.
I have been a drill instructor in a prison boot camp (an adult penitentiary down South) for over six years now. We train and rehabilitate non-violent offenders using a 105-day military style boot camp. Before that, I served for 21 years in the regular Army and worked a gig for Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) anti-terrorism training organization for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).
During my military career, I served two tours in South Korea (one of which was retro-actively considered a combat tour because of the unanticipated battle on 23 November 1984), one tour in Germany, two Middle East combat tours, and a total of five and half years as a paratrooper and jumpmaster. I say all this not to spout out my resume, but so that I can assure you that I am absolutely qualified to make the statements I am about to make.
In the last six and a half years since I took on this job, I have been studying to become a drill instructor. Where did I go for my research? The Marine Corps.
I have always been fascinated by the Marines. In fact, I have served alongside them on several occasions. I began reading articles, watching hours and hours of video, and speaking with many Marines (drill instructors and non-drill instructors alike).
Over time, I have become a bit of a self-proclaimed, self-educated expert on Marine training: what they do, how they do it, why they do it, when they do it, etc. In the process of studying their training, I have come to several conclusions. I have also come to several conclusions about the Army, some not so good – some are downright scary.
Here are the things I have learned through my extensive research:
1. The Army runs a softer, “human dignity based” reception and receiving when the recruits arrive. The reception is so weak that it sets a very bad tone for the remainder of not just their training, but for their whole career in the Army. Recruits show up to a firm welcome by the drill sergeants and staff, but it’s not the controlled mayhem of a Marine Corps Recruit Depot (MCRD). In fact, it seems to comfort and reassure soldiers as if to say “calm down and relax, it’s going to be all right.” Now that is all right if that is a message from your mother, but it’s not okay when we are trying to build the next generations of Spartans.
Marine receiving, on the other hand, is a “shock theater” from the minute they get off the bus through their graduation. The mayhem starts when their feet hit the “deck” and it never ever lets up. The discipline and stress is through the roof! The Army reception staff occasionally get perplexed as if to say “silly Private, get over here...shucks, what are you doing?”
In an MCRD, the recruit would be screamed at: ”GET OVER HERE! TOO SLOW, GO BACK! GET OVER HERE! STOP EYEBALLING ME! GET YOUR HEELS TOGETHER! Hey there was something you were supposed to say when told to do something, WHAT WAS IT? RESPOND!…AYE AYE SIR! RESPOND!”
See the difference? Here’s what I always say: weak pick up, weak recruits, strong pick up, strong recruits. That means if you “go in punching,” so to speak, the recruits know you mean business, you are not playing, and you are tougher than they are. You want them to be nearly peeing their pants from fear and stress.
The Army feels we need to treat people with dignity and respect and that people will shut down if screamed at too much. If that were true, the Marines have been doing it wrong since about 1952. That’s around the time that the Smokey bear hat and the structured chaos of boot camp kicked into gear. Don’t get me wrong: the Marines always wrote the book on discipline, but during the 1950’s the MCRDs really stepped up their game.
2. The tone the Army sets in basic training is wrong. The Army trains; the Marines indoctrinate. Do you see the difference? The Marines initiate the recruit into a culture, the Army trains them in tasks. Sure, the Army has core values that are really good. The values make sense and they are motivating, but the Marines ingrain it deeper into a youngster’s soul.
While the Army does change the person’s life, it does not instill the intrinsic values in the same way that the Marines do. Unless you are in an elite Army unit like Infantry, Airborne, Rangers, Special Forces, or Delta, you just don’t have the warrior ethos that the Army claims it builds. If you are a motivated gung-ho individual and you are not in an elite unit, the Army (or at least fellow soldiers) treat you like an oddball. How do I know this? I have spent a total of about 30 years around it, and I have been in Airborne, Infantry, and attached to Special Ops units, as well as regular units. In the Marines, gung-ho motivation is business as usual. You stand out if you aren’t highly motivated.
3. The Marines base their training on indoctrinating the individual into the core values of the Marines. Their training relies heavily on close order drill. They believe that drill instills a sense of teamwork and attention to detail that no other activity can. Drill teaches an individual that there are immediate consequences for an individual’s actions on their group. In other words, when one guy messes up a movement, it doesn’t go unnoticed. That soldier makes his squad look bad, that squad affects the platoon, and so on. Have you ever seen one guy in a formation either doing something late or doing the wrong movement? It sticks out like dog balls!
Now take this concept - that my actions affect the group as a whole - and apply it to war. If I move and am seen by the enemy, I may not just get myself killed, but my whole squad, platoon, company, etc. When you train with that kind of attention to detail, you are disciplined.
The Army conducts impeccable training in close order drill. In fact, the largest source of failure for students at the drill sergeant school is testing of the drill modules. So why does the Army not march as well as the Marines and why is marching not as high a priority in the Army?
4. The Army introduces combat skills earlier than the Marines do. The Army trains more combat tasks in its basic training that the Marines. Now while this may seem like a good idea, it’s really not. Teaching combat tasks before a person is fully indoctrinated in the love of corps and country is a very bad idea. It's like letting a kid who just learned how to drive enter a NASCAR race. The kid may have great skills, coordination, and reflexes, but the reality is that they have only been driving less than a year.
The Marines realize that indoctrination in the love of God, Country, and Corps has priority over learning “nuts and bolts” training. In fact, if a person is properly indoctrinated, they can be taught the other skills too, ultimately mastering them with more zeal than a person who had not been indoctrinated.
Keeping this in mind, the Marines focus on just a few things in boot camp but they drive those few things home. Drill, core values, marksmanship, fighting spirit, physical fitness, and teamwork are really all you learn in Marine Boot Camp. If a recruit masters these, the rest is strictly academic. They learn the more advanced combat skills in a course called Marine Corps Combat Training (MCT).
The Army on the other hand doesn’t get as in-depth with marksmanship, although they do get proficient at shooting, but then focus on assaulting objectives, fire and maneuver, and other combat tasks Marines don’t see until much later. The Army has removed bayonet fighting from basic training based on the rationale that you are not issued a bayonet downrange (slang term for deployed combat area) and no one uses bayonets in combat anymore.
The Marines approach this concept differently. The Marines believe that bayonet drills and bayonet sparring (pugil stick fighting) instill a killer instinct that can be obtained no other way. The Marines then integrate their bayonet fighting into their own indigenous martial art called MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program). This fighting system employs the concept of “one mind, any weapon.” A motivated Marine can pick up a shovel and kill the bad guys like Sampson swinging a donkey’s jawbone. Why? Because he is indoctrinated in the art and mentality of a warrior. The Army trains warfare - make no mistake - but it takes the front seat over indoctrination.
5. Everything in Marine Boot Camp is done with speed, intensity, and volume. In Army basic you are required to move very fast, but the tone is different. The Marines “count down” every task in boot camp. That means they say “go” or “ready move” and then you have an allotted amount of time to accomplish the task. If you don’t finish in time, you do it again, and again, and again. I saw more count downs in Airborne School than Army basic training.
I think the reason we don’t do this in the Army as much as the Marines do is because of time constraints. We have much bigger platoons and companies in Army basic training and fewer drill sergeants (or DI if you prefer) than the Marines do. You have somewhere to be and you have more skills to learn and there isn’t enough time to keep putting pants on in less than 30 seconds. But look at it this way: the Marines take a longer period of time (13 weeks in the Marines versus the Army’s 9-10 weeks) to train fewer skills and indoctrinate the mind, body, and soul of the recruit.
This might also explain why we do not spend as much time on drill in Army Basic Training. There are lots of skills to be taught and very little time to do so. Every Army unit I have ever served with has been weak in drill. Sure, we can march from point A to point B, but anything beyond that and we need to rehearse. Why? Because in the Army we do not emphasize drill like we ought to. Drill needs to be on the training schedule like PT or any other task. But we do it in basic training and then we let it go.
6. The Marines use a “rebirth system,” so to speak. Marines are not called Marines verbally or in any other way until they have “earned the title.” The Army calls their recruits “soldiers” from day one.
The Marines understand that you are not a full-fledged Marine until you have earned the insignia of the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor (the EGA as Marines call it). This is not done until the very last week in which recruits participate in an event called The Crucible. This is a 56 hour “gut check.” Recruits undergo a hell week, a series of combat team tasks over that 56 hour period on very little food and sleep.
These tasks are not complex. We are not talking about a huge military strategy here. We are talking about moving ammo cans over an obstacle course, evacuating a casualty under fire through the sucking mud, and getting a squad over a distance with obstacles and difficult terrain.
The crucible awards a “badge” or “award”… the EGA. There is a “becoming” associated with graduating Marine Boot Camp. It’s like a caterpillar emerging from a cocoon as a butterfly or in this case, emerging as an elite warrior. This attitude follows the Marine for the rest of his or her life. It is a significant and emotional event that is never ever forgotten. In order to get that similar effect in the Army, you would have to go to Airborne or even Ranger school.
We must find a way to raise the bar in the Army. We must find a way to make the Army an elite concept. It must become more than a catchy slogan “Army Strong” and a way to make money for college. We must return to the Spartan roots that made us great. Because right now? We are not great.
I have been a drill instructor in a prison boot camp (an adult penitentiary down South) for over six years now. We train and rehabilitate non-violent offenders using a 105-day military style boot camp. Before that, I served for 21 years in the regular Army and worked a gig for Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) anti-terrorism training organization for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).
During my military career, I served two tours in South Korea (one of which was retro-actively considered a combat tour because of the unanticipated battle on 23 November 1984), one tour in Germany, two Middle East combat tours, and a total of five and half years as a paratrooper and jumpmaster. I say all this not to spout out my resume, but so that I can assure you that I am absolutely qualified to make the statements I am about to make.
In the last six and a half years since I took on this job, I have been studying to become a drill instructor. Where did I go for my research? The Marine Corps.
I have always been fascinated by the Marines. In fact, I have served alongside them on several occasions. I began reading articles, watching hours and hours of video, and speaking with many Marines (drill instructors and non-drill instructors alike).
Over time, I have become a bit of a self-proclaimed, self-educated expert on Marine training: what they do, how they do it, why they do it, when they do it, etc. In the process of studying their training, I have come to several conclusions. I have also come to several conclusions about the Army, some not so good – some are downright scary.
Here are the things I have learned through my extensive research:
1. The Army runs a softer, “human dignity based” reception and receiving when the recruits arrive. The reception is so weak that it sets a very bad tone for the remainder of not just their training, but for their whole career in the Army. Recruits show up to a firm welcome by the drill sergeants and staff, but it’s not the controlled mayhem of a Marine Corps Recruit Depot (MCRD). In fact, it seems to comfort and reassure soldiers as if to say “calm down and relax, it’s going to be all right.” Now that is all right if that is a message from your mother, but it’s not okay when we are trying to build the next generations of Spartans.
Marine receiving, on the other hand, is a “shock theater” from the minute they get off the bus through their graduation. The mayhem starts when their feet hit the “deck” and it never ever lets up. The discipline and stress is through the roof! The Army reception staff occasionally get perplexed as if to say “silly Private, get over here...shucks, what are you doing?”
In an MCRD, the recruit would be screamed at: ”GET OVER HERE! TOO SLOW, GO BACK! GET OVER HERE! STOP EYEBALLING ME! GET YOUR HEELS TOGETHER! Hey there was something you were supposed to say when told to do something, WHAT WAS IT? RESPOND!…AYE AYE SIR! RESPOND!”
See the difference? Here’s what I always say: weak pick up, weak recruits, strong pick up, strong recruits. That means if you “go in punching,” so to speak, the recruits know you mean business, you are not playing, and you are tougher than they are. You want them to be nearly peeing their pants from fear and stress.
The Army feels we need to treat people with dignity and respect and that people will shut down if screamed at too much. If that were true, the Marines have been doing it wrong since about 1952. That’s around the time that the Smokey bear hat and the structured chaos of boot camp kicked into gear. Don’t get me wrong: the Marines always wrote the book on discipline, but during the 1950’s the MCRDs really stepped up their game.
2. The tone the Army sets in basic training is wrong. The Army trains; the Marines indoctrinate. Do you see the difference? The Marines initiate the recruit into a culture, the Army trains them in tasks. Sure, the Army has core values that are really good. The values make sense and they are motivating, but the Marines ingrain it deeper into a youngster’s soul.
While the Army does change the person’s life, it does not instill the intrinsic values in the same way that the Marines do. Unless you are in an elite Army unit like Infantry, Airborne, Rangers, Special Forces, or Delta, you just don’t have the warrior ethos that the Army claims it builds. If you are a motivated gung-ho individual and you are not in an elite unit, the Army (or at least fellow soldiers) treat you like an oddball. How do I know this? I have spent a total of about 30 years around it, and I have been in Airborne, Infantry, and attached to Special Ops units, as well as regular units. In the Marines, gung-ho motivation is business as usual. You stand out if you aren’t highly motivated.
3. The Marines base their training on indoctrinating the individual into the core values of the Marines. Their training relies heavily on close order drill. They believe that drill instills a sense of teamwork and attention to detail that no other activity can. Drill teaches an individual that there are immediate consequences for an individual’s actions on their group. In other words, when one guy messes up a movement, it doesn’t go unnoticed. That soldier makes his squad look bad, that squad affects the platoon, and so on. Have you ever seen one guy in a formation either doing something late or doing the wrong movement? It sticks out like dog balls!
Now take this concept - that my actions affect the group as a whole - and apply it to war. If I move and am seen by the enemy, I may not just get myself killed, but my whole squad, platoon, company, etc. When you train with that kind of attention to detail, you are disciplined.
The Army conducts impeccable training in close order drill. In fact, the largest source of failure for students at the drill sergeant school is testing of the drill modules. So why does the Army not march as well as the Marines and why is marching not as high a priority in the Army?
4. The Army introduces combat skills earlier than the Marines do. The Army trains more combat tasks in its basic training that the Marines. Now while this may seem like a good idea, it’s really not. Teaching combat tasks before a person is fully indoctrinated in the love of corps and country is a very bad idea. It's like letting a kid who just learned how to drive enter a NASCAR race. The kid may have great skills, coordination, and reflexes, but the reality is that they have only been driving less than a year.
The Marines realize that indoctrination in the love of God, Country, and Corps has priority over learning “nuts and bolts” training. In fact, if a person is properly indoctrinated, they can be taught the other skills too, ultimately mastering them with more zeal than a person who had not been indoctrinated.
Keeping this in mind, the Marines focus on just a few things in boot camp but they drive those few things home. Drill, core values, marksmanship, fighting spirit, physical fitness, and teamwork are really all you learn in Marine Boot Camp. If a recruit masters these, the rest is strictly academic. They learn the more advanced combat skills in a course called Marine Corps Combat Training (MCT).
The Army on the other hand doesn’t get as in-depth with marksmanship, although they do get proficient at shooting, but then focus on assaulting objectives, fire and maneuver, and other combat tasks Marines don’t see until much later. The Army has removed bayonet fighting from basic training based on the rationale that you are not issued a bayonet downrange (slang term for deployed combat area) and no one uses bayonets in combat anymore.
The Marines approach this concept differently. The Marines believe that bayonet drills and bayonet sparring (pugil stick fighting) instill a killer instinct that can be obtained no other way. The Marines then integrate their bayonet fighting into their own indigenous martial art called MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program). This fighting system employs the concept of “one mind, any weapon.” A motivated Marine can pick up a shovel and kill the bad guys like Sampson swinging a donkey’s jawbone. Why? Because he is indoctrinated in the art and mentality of a warrior. The Army trains warfare - make no mistake - but it takes the front seat over indoctrination.
5. Everything in Marine Boot Camp is done with speed, intensity, and volume. In Army basic you are required to move very fast, but the tone is different. The Marines “count down” every task in boot camp. That means they say “go” or “ready move” and then you have an allotted amount of time to accomplish the task. If you don’t finish in time, you do it again, and again, and again. I saw more count downs in Airborne School than Army basic training.
I think the reason we don’t do this in the Army as much as the Marines do is because of time constraints. We have much bigger platoons and companies in Army basic training and fewer drill sergeants (or DI if you prefer) than the Marines do. You have somewhere to be and you have more skills to learn and there isn’t enough time to keep putting pants on in less than 30 seconds. But look at it this way: the Marines take a longer period of time (13 weeks in the Marines versus the Army’s 9-10 weeks) to train fewer skills and indoctrinate the mind, body, and soul of the recruit.
This might also explain why we do not spend as much time on drill in Army Basic Training. There are lots of skills to be taught and very little time to do so. Every Army unit I have ever served with has been weak in drill. Sure, we can march from point A to point B, but anything beyond that and we need to rehearse. Why? Because in the Army we do not emphasize drill like we ought to. Drill needs to be on the training schedule like PT or any other task. But we do it in basic training and then we let it go.
6. The Marines use a “rebirth system,” so to speak. Marines are not called Marines verbally or in any other way until they have “earned the title.” The Army calls their recruits “soldiers” from day one.
The Marines understand that you are not a full-fledged Marine until you have earned the insignia of the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor (the EGA as Marines call it). This is not done until the very last week in which recruits participate in an event called The Crucible. This is a 56 hour “gut check.” Recruits undergo a hell week, a series of combat team tasks over that 56 hour period on very little food and sleep.
These tasks are not complex. We are not talking about a huge military strategy here. We are talking about moving ammo cans over an obstacle course, evacuating a casualty under fire through the sucking mud, and getting a squad over a distance with obstacles and difficult terrain.
The crucible awards a “badge” or “award”… the EGA. There is a “becoming” associated with graduating Marine Boot Camp. It’s like a caterpillar emerging from a cocoon as a butterfly or in this case, emerging as an elite warrior. This attitude follows the Marine for the rest of his or her life. It is a significant and emotional event that is never ever forgotten. In order to get that similar effect in the Army, you would have to go to Airborne or even Ranger school.
We must find a way to raise the bar in the Army. We must find a way to make the Army an elite concept. It must become more than a catchy slogan “Army Strong” and a way to make money for college. We must return to the Spartan roots that made us great. Because right now? We are not great.
Marine Corps
Culture
Standards
Command Post
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 147
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I am 87 years old, retired Army. I was a young 18 year old Army corporal in November and December 1950 with a Squad of Draftees all older than me when my Platoon was selected to join up with a Regimental Combat Team to go help the Marines who were surrounded by the what seemed like the whole damned Chinese Army. Guess who came to the rescue of those supermen Marines, us poorly trained, misguided, stumblebum United States Army Riff Raff of young NCOs and elderly Draftees, that's who. If I remember right 800 Marines and 2000 Army were killed at the Chosin. The Marines were evacuated out of the Chosin 10 Dec 1950, my unit departed at 1100 hours Christmas Eve 24 Dec 1950. We held back the Chinese until everyone else had left. Admittedly we were not ready for combat when we got to Korea but those of us who survived were well versed in the art of War when we left.
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Good day Gentleman, great post to SSG Watson very detailed! As many have commented every Branch has its objective. Marines are harden-up because there job is to take the beaches and secure way for the rest etc, so it's obvious that they need a special Psychological push mentally and physically. Army as well has many tasks in hand. Some have said that is why we have several units that are prepared for such tasks so ultimately we can't expect truck drivers or communication personal to have the same drive that a Marine will have taking a beach etc. Maybe the post missed out on the difference of what other branches do as a whole to be as one but we have a great and solid Force that cannot be beaten by no other. God Bless America
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I probably shouldn't respond because I have to admit that I quit reading this nonsense diatribe less than 1/4 of the way through it. I had to quit reading because I was laughing too hard after this wannabe started babbling about elite units and included Infantry.
Bottom line, yes, the US Army training and overall ethos isn't as tough as the Marine Corps. Does that hurt the mission capability of either service? - no it does not. Does it make a difference in how the services go about accomplishing their mission? - almost certainly it does.
There are far more differences between the Marine Corps and the Army besides just the stress level of USMC Reception and training -- and those differences provide the nation with two DIFFERENT military services which are NOT interchangeable, never have been interchangeable, never were meant to be interchangeable, and (hopefully) never will be interchangeable.
Should the Army attempt to mimic the Marine Corps? Hell No! There is no more reason for the Army to mimic the Marine Corps than there would be for the entire Marine Corps to adopt Scout Sniper School plus BUD/S as the training standard for MOS 0311
Bottom line, yes, the US Army training and overall ethos isn't as tough as the Marine Corps. Does that hurt the mission capability of either service? - no it does not. Does it make a difference in how the services go about accomplishing their mission? - almost certainly it does.
There are far more differences between the Marine Corps and the Army besides just the stress level of USMC Reception and training -- and those differences provide the nation with two DIFFERENT military services which are NOT interchangeable, never have been interchangeable, never were meant to be interchangeable, and (hopefully) never will be interchangeable.
Should the Army attempt to mimic the Marine Corps? Hell No! There is no more reason for the Army to mimic the Marine Corps than there would be for the entire Marine Corps to adopt Scout Sniper School plus BUD/S as the training standard for MOS 0311
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SSG Lon Watson
I’ll tell you what master sergeant I’ll give you more respect than you gave me. First I’m not a wannabe. Not at all. I don’t need to justify my resume to you. But again with respect, you missed the point. Not a little bit, but a lot. So it’s a bad idea to raise standards, quit being pusses, and spartan up the regular army? It would cost nothing, zero to raise the bar. And unless you served in a Ranger battalion, SF The Unit you have no room to talk down to me. Especially when all I’m trying to do is raise awareness to the low standards. Good day MSG!
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SPC Oscar TorresPlata
SSG Lon Watson I believe SSG Watson that by writing your post all you will do is get difference of opinion! Ultimately the Pentagon has think tanks that are prepared for such matter. Best regards.
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There is a reason why we advertise and wear moto gear when we retire or get out. Love for the Corps from day one
All of boot camp is a emphasis on team.....there is no I.
All of boot camp is a emphasis on team.....there is no I.
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Sounds like to me you should have transferred to the Marines if you admire them so much. And to educate you a little bit the Army used to be like that, don't really know when they got soft but you are right, and shorten your comment not many people want to read a book here
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As a Marine. Ft Benning OSUT is not basic training. The next guy tapped out which says something about his attention to detail. The comment about money needs to include the value of a life. I enlisted in 1965 while still in high school. Went to Parris Island just after graduation. I decided on the Marines because I knew I would be drafted and sent to Vietnam. I wanted the best training to survive. After 9 years and 2 tours I got out and went into the reserves. 1977 gas prices skyrocketed so I transfered to the National Guard 6 blocks from my house. as a SSgt. Getting out was the worst mistake of my life but enlisting was the best.
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I was in the army for 7 years as a crypto linguist/signal intelligence. Right after basic training but before AIT I went to language school for a year with members of all branches. Then our AIT was all together too. I formed close friendships with a good number of service members in other branches, and I've got nothing but love for the unique culture each branch has cultivated. The marines are more disciplined- no question about that. But the draw back to that culture, in my opinion and experience, is that they cannot draw and retain the high number of technically proficient individuals the other branches need.
That isn't to say all marines are unintelligent. That is to say that many people with high level technical skills will not choose to live that life. That is why the marines are the FEW... God bless the marines, but I'm proud of my service as a support MOS in the army. We worked magic without all the hoopla.
That isn't to say all marines are unintelligent. That is to say that many people with high level technical skills will not choose to live that life. That is why the marines are the FEW... God bless the marines, but I'm proud of my service as a support MOS in the army. We worked magic without all the hoopla.
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Having been an Australian Army Recruit Instructor (RI) and a Royal Australian Air Force Military Skills Instructor (MSI) I can only say shock and awe in the first couple of days works! The one comment that will always stay in my mind was from an Air Force recruit after Marching out of training “I thought it would be harder” that was after Air Force tried the soft gentle approach for a year. From day one the Australian Military teachs stress relation and that you can handle it. We always believed as Instructors that Recruit Training will set the Soldier, Sailor and Airman up for the rest of their career. Train hard, fight easy. Instilling the brotherhood mentality is a much lost ideal in the modern world of Combat.
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I went through basic training in 1989 at Ft Dix NJ. Reading your opinions about how “soft” Army basic is compared to the Marines (whom I might add I have the highest respect for) kind of bothered me. I was never treated “softly”. To this day I still remember the phrase “are you eyeballin me soldier!” We females did everything the male soldiers did, and in many ways were held to higher standards because we were “females”. We had to prove everything. Yes, there were weaker ones. Anyone who has been through basic knows the drill. The weak link causes punishment for all so DONT be the weak link. All I know is, there was nothing softer about my time. But then again that was a long time ago. I respect your opinion.
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To agree I believe in this shock treatment,but demeaning new recruits and making them feel less then a snake in the grass can also have reverse affects..I saw two Soldiers At Ft Jackson Commit Suicide because of this ..The background of People isn't known when u meet these Soldiers or Future Marines..No we can't treat them like Babies but Just saying there has to be a line drawn somewhere..
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You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth, Well Done. Our Next enemy either ISIS or the Chinese are trained very differently than we are. They are trained to Kill and take orders. If we attack a hill and have 75% casualties we fell we did not accomplish our mission. They did if they took the hill ! We take Air Superiority as granted, maybe in the near future, China will have it. Then what? Remember in the beginning of World War 2 Japan kicked our ass. You have to be mentally and physically tough to win the next war...................Semper Fi
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I think your post is fairly accurate. I was an Infantry Soldier for many years. From my perspective, the Marines do a great job instilling the warrior spirit in basic training. The Army, even in the Infantry do not. That being said, individual units (from division level down to the squad) can and frequently do produce high quality soldiers who have that same warrior spirit. It begins with standards being standards in the go to war units. They are not easy to achieve, nor are they compromised to accommodate those who cannot hack it. Basic training is just that, BASIC. The proof is in the pudding, though. Our soldiers have accomplished incredible exploits on the battlefield these many years of war. In Afghanistan and Iraq, those who have faced our soldiers have suffered. Being Army Strong is not just about being hyper motivated coming out of initial entry training, it's about taking the fight to the enemy and breaking him. Our Army soldiers have been doing that job admirably for 15 years straight.
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I agree also on a different matter regarding the Marines and the US Army-Why did the Army spend several millions in research to determining that the ACU was the best camo pattern and then in a matter of a very few years decides to change to a pattern that is very similar to the Marine camo pattern. In this case I feel a little sorry for the Officers who now have to purchase the new patter uniform. Another example-currently the Army is researching what the best sidearm should be and is proposing spending 300 million in R&D yet the Marines are driving on will probably use a weapon that is currently in production. I hate to say it but I'm sure there are other examples though as retired Army I hate to hand it to the Marines!!
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You've made some great points. Personally I attended some JROTC summer bootcamps that I thought were harder then Army BCT. In my JROTC camps I had rangers, airborne, green beret and navy seal instructors. I was in the Raider company which is the high school version of rangers. The navy seals weighed us down in web gear and unexpectedly pushed us into a lake from speeding boats where we had to use the quick releases to get the gear off and re surface, the green berets took us out into the forrest where we learned to ID edible plants and bugs, made shelters with our ponchos and slept in them for 2 days while doing obstacle courses and leadership courses during the day. In JROTC we did the entire obstacle courses in BCT they skipped obstacles deemed "to dangerous" or restricted how high you could go on some obstacles. The Army needs to toughen up it's sad that I received harder training in high school then the real Army. In high school I ruck marched at a forced pace with a ruck so heavy I had to roll over on my belly to stand up. In BCT my ruck was 40 pounds and not much bigger then a backpack. The slowest person was placed at the head of our marches and those who couldn't keep up were thrown in the back of a truck. I LOVE the U.S. Army and the brother/sisterhood but I have only seen the standards become more and more lax and generations of "entitled" soldiers joining the ranks thinking they have the "right" to question everything.
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My friend, I think you're looking at this wrong. I'm pretty sure this is a numbers game. The Army has huge numbers in budgeting and personnel compared to the Marines. This means they can afford a lot more in terms of billets/positions, equipment, responsibility, which leads to "compromises" in quality, because of the fact that is that the Army needs more personnel to man, train, and equip those positions, equipment, and responsibility. If you notice, the Marine Corps does not create it's own organic medical and religious personnel; in fact, if you look at our boating capacity, Marines only really operate AAVs, LAVs, and Zodiacs. Other amphibious personnel carriers are typically ran by either the Navy (for the most part) or in some instances the Army. This is because the Marine Corps can't afford to do so, both by budgeting, Title 10 authorities, and the like. The "brilliance in the basics" standpoint from square one for Marines is due to numbers; we are not allotted the same amount of personnel, so we do with what we got, and we start with the recruit. Because we can't afford to throw all the Corps' money and training into personnel, we indoctrinate to weed out those who can't hack it.
Take a look at the US Army's overall mission:
"The Army’s mission is to fight and win our Nation’s wars by providing prompt, sustained land dominance across the full range of military operations and spectrum of conflict in support of combatant commanders. We do this by:
•Executing Title 10 and Title 32 United States Code directives, to include organizing, equipping, and training forces for the conduct of prompt and sustained combat operations on land.
•Accomplishing missions assigned by the President, Secretary of Defense and combatant commanders, and Transforming for the future."
IOT provide SUSTAINED combat operations on land, it becomes a numbers game. The Marine Corps cannot conduct long-term sustained operations effectively; we're not built that way. We work best in the operational/tactical realm, not the strategic. We can be utilized in the strategic realm, but usually in the initial portions of a conflict; while in recent wars, this hasn't been the case, it's how it's supposed to go. That's where the United States needs Marines; at the bleeding edge front line. The training we get keeps that edge. Now while it'd help, it is simply unnecessary for regular Army personnel that're conducting long term engagements. Not every Soldier is going to be cut out for front line combat activities, SOF engagements, or extremely specialized missions; this is why there's a regular Army. Why hold them to that higher standard when there's no operational necessity to do so? Those who want to pursue those higher tiers that are more than encouraged to do so, and standards at those units are exceptionally high, even compared to the Marines. The Rangers, for example, will "Release For Standards" anyone who doesn't meet the Ranger standard back into conventional Army. The Marine Corps will separate personnel from the Corps who can't meet the standard, but nowhere near with the quickness the 75th Ranger Regiment does; Marines will take months, Rangers in a day or two MAX.
At this point you're probably thinking I'm missing your initial point in regards to quality Soldiers; what I'm trying to get to you is that this is a numbers game in regards to training quality Soldiers to meet personnel requirements which the Army has a lot of to meet. This becomes a balancing act of how effectively should the Army train/indoctrinate their Soldiers (the more intense, the higher the attrition rate) vice not being able to meet those manning requirements which sets long term engagements up for failure. What I'd start looking at, instead of comparing Marines to Soldiers, is not just giving Soldiers the tools of the trade but more of the wisdom to utilize them effectively. Making Soldiers more "Marine-like" isn't going to help anyone. The Army needs quality Soldiers, but this can't be done by making them Marines. You can build a better culture. Take away the coddling. Hold Soldier initiates to higher standards of conduct. Develop their confidence in their actions and decision making, while under stress. Teach them how to "make a decision uphill", if it ever comes to that. Ingrain within them the importance of the title they hold and how they fit into the greater Army puzzle.
Take a look at the US Army's overall mission:
"The Army’s mission is to fight and win our Nation’s wars by providing prompt, sustained land dominance across the full range of military operations and spectrum of conflict in support of combatant commanders. We do this by:
•Executing Title 10 and Title 32 United States Code directives, to include organizing, equipping, and training forces for the conduct of prompt and sustained combat operations on land.
•Accomplishing missions assigned by the President, Secretary of Defense and combatant commanders, and Transforming for the future."
IOT provide SUSTAINED combat operations on land, it becomes a numbers game. The Marine Corps cannot conduct long-term sustained operations effectively; we're not built that way. We work best in the operational/tactical realm, not the strategic. We can be utilized in the strategic realm, but usually in the initial portions of a conflict; while in recent wars, this hasn't been the case, it's how it's supposed to go. That's where the United States needs Marines; at the bleeding edge front line. The training we get keeps that edge. Now while it'd help, it is simply unnecessary for regular Army personnel that're conducting long term engagements. Not every Soldier is going to be cut out for front line combat activities, SOF engagements, or extremely specialized missions; this is why there's a regular Army. Why hold them to that higher standard when there's no operational necessity to do so? Those who want to pursue those higher tiers that are more than encouraged to do so, and standards at those units are exceptionally high, even compared to the Marines. The Rangers, for example, will "Release For Standards" anyone who doesn't meet the Ranger standard back into conventional Army. The Marine Corps will separate personnel from the Corps who can't meet the standard, but nowhere near with the quickness the 75th Ranger Regiment does; Marines will take months, Rangers in a day or two MAX.
At this point you're probably thinking I'm missing your initial point in regards to quality Soldiers; what I'm trying to get to you is that this is a numbers game in regards to training quality Soldiers to meet personnel requirements which the Army has a lot of to meet. This becomes a balancing act of how effectively should the Army train/indoctrinate their Soldiers (the more intense, the higher the attrition rate) vice not being able to meet those manning requirements which sets long term engagements up for failure. What I'd start looking at, instead of comparing Marines to Soldiers, is not just giving Soldiers the tools of the trade but more of the wisdom to utilize them effectively. Making Soldiers more "Marine-like" isn't going to help anyone. The Army needs quality Soldiers, but this can't be done by making them Marines. You can build a better culture. Take away the coddling. Hold Soldier initiates to higher standards of conduct. Develop their confidence in their actions and decision making, while under stress. Teach them how to "make a decision uphill", if it ever comes to that. Ingrain within them the importance of the title they hold and how they fit into the greater Army puzzle.
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The answer is obvious. We are a volunteer military. And while the Marines have never had recruiting problems/shortages, the other branches have. This is why USAF "grunts" are in combat now, females serving on submarines and kinder/gentler Army boot camp. Because people just aren't joining. Enlistment ages are expanded, tatoo's, etc. All because no one's joining. Were the Marines to experience manning shortfalls, then their talking heads and bean counters would board-room some changes. For now, the Dogs have no shortage of folk wanting to don the Khaki and Green and as the commercial says "be the ones running towards the gunfire and danger."
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In another thread, I have made very much the same arguments. It has been said the measure of how smart someone is ; is how much they agree with you. By that criterion: SSG Lon Watson is a very smart man.
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To the author I will say you are qualified to give your opinion but whether your qualified to make those statements is debatable. I'm curious to know why you didn't use a forum like AUSA, ARS (Army Retirement Services), etc., to voice your criticisms through the senior leadership up to the current SMA Daniel Dailey in order to address your perceptions and maybe affect some change if you were really concerned about today's soldier's in the Army. I'm retired and served from 1980 - 2000 and one thing I never forgot as a leader is the NCO CREED which has one the following excerpts: "I will be loyal to those with whom I serve; seniors, peers, and subordinates alike". You appear to be very hypocritical with this post considering your comments about your history with the Army. Posting these issues (which applies to all branches) on a social media site looks a bit self serving to me and benefits no one but you and your ulterior motives. I don't see the correlation between your duties as a prison boot camp drill sergeant and what's occurring in the basic training with the current Army. But since you were negligent and bias with your dissertation I feel it's my duty to enlighten the RallyPoint readers with some additional information of fact. As the largest of America's Armed Forces the Army also has a large amount of responsibilities with one of them being to train Marines (i.e, military police, combat engineers, armor, satellite communications, ranger training, airborne/air assault, military free fall, etc) which is something you failed to mention in your blog. How can you make comments about the current basic training in the Army (which is 9 weeks compared to 8 weeks in the 1980's) when you haven't even gone thru the current curriculum that today's recruits must pass. One thing I realized about the Army of today is that it's different then when I came in 1980, but today's soldier's are technical and tactically proficient and have proven it with 16 years of combat experience in the War on Terror. To you and your supporters basic training is one element of the game, winning wars is part of our fame which we continue to reign supreme as an Army Team!
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SSG Lon Watson
Well since you retired in 2000 I don't know how much you know about modern warfare. Also I really don't think you can speak for my motives unless you and God are homeboys. I write for Rally Point, my editor picks where my articles go, not me. And prison boot camp has A LOT of similarities to training troops for battle. And since I've done both I am qualified to comment. I'm also a published author and resercher and a SME on recruit training pipelines. I lead a consortium of 500 drill sergeants and drill instructors who report their frustrations to me frequently. I'm sounding an alarm, not being disloyal. Is it disloyal to wake up sleeping people in a burning building?
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Concur. At PI the whole thing and for the whole time is - WTF are you doing here? WHY ON EARTH do you think -you- could EVER be a United States Marine?
We graduated on a Monday morning. The previous Saturday I saw a DI in another platoon in our series choking a recruit - with his own crutch.
It made me shudder.
Walt
We graduated on a Monday morning. The previous Saturday I saw a DI in another platoon in our series choking a recruit - with his own crutch.
It made me shudder.
Walt
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SSG Lon Watson
Now I don't condone choking, but I get the idea. I was teaching BNCOC, OBC, and AIT at Ft Sam Houston, TX in 2002. The sex scandals with recruits blew by mind. A girl would say she was having sex with her drill sergeant and of course the DS would deny it. Then the girl would describe the inside of said drill sergeants house or apartment to the minute detail. Something she could only do if she'd been there. One girl described tattoos on the DS's body. Crazy.
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