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Today, I may make some people mad. But what I want to address is vitally important.
I have been a drill instructor in a prison boot camp (an adult penitentiary down South) for over six years now. We train and rehabilitate non-violent offenders using a 105-day military style boot camp. Before that, I served for 21 years in the regular Army and worked a gig for Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) anti-terrorism training organization for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).
During my military career, I served two tours in South Korea (one of which was retro-actively considered a combat tour because of the unanticipated battle on 23 November 1984), one tour in Germany, two Middle East combat tours, and a total of five and half years as a paratrooper and jumpmaster. I say all this not to spout out my resume, but so that I can assure you that I am absolutely qualified to make the statements I am about to make.
In the last six and a half years since I took on this job, I have been studying to become a drill instructor. Where did I go for my research? The Marine Corps.
I have always been fascinated by the Marines. In fact, I have served alongside them on several occasions. I began reading articles, watching hours and hours of video, and speaking with many Marines (drill instructors and non-drill instructors alike).
Over time, I have become a bit of a self-proclaimed, self-educated expert on Marine training: what they do, how they do it, why they do it, when they do it, etc. In the process of studying their training, I have come to several conclusions. I have also come to several conclusions about the Army, some not so good – some are downright scary.
Here are the things I have learned through my extensive research:
1. The Army runs a softer, “human dignity based” reception and receiving when the recruits arrive. The reception is so weak that it sets a very bad tone for the remainder of not just their training, but for their whole career in the Army. Recruits show up to a firm welcome by the drill sergeants and staff, but it’s not the controlled mayhem of a Marine Corps Recruit Depot (MCRD). In fact, it seems to comfort and reassure soldiers as if to say “calm down and relax, it’s going to be all right.” Now that is all right if that is a message from your mother, but it’s not okay when we are trying to build the next generations of Spartans.
Marine receiving, on the other hand, is a “shock theater” from the minute they get off the bus through their graduation. The mayhem starts when their feet hit the “deck” and it never ever lets up. The discipline and stress is through the roof! The Army reception staff occasionally get perplexed as if to say “silly Private, get over here...shucks, what are you doing?”
In an MCRD, the recruit would be screamed at: ”GET OVER HERE! TOO SLOW, GO BACK! GET OVER HERE! STOP EYEBALLING ME! GET YOUR HEELS TOGETHER! Hey there was something you were supposed to say when told to do something, WHAT WAS IT? RESPOND!…AYE AYE SIR! RESPOND!”
See the difference? Here’s what I always say: weak pick up, weak recruits, strong pick up, strong recruits. That means if you “go in punching,” so to speak, the recruits know you mean business, you are not playing, and you are tougher than they are. You want them to be nearly peeing their pants from fear and stress.
The Army feels we need to treat people with dignity and respect and that people will shut down if screamed at too much. If that were true, the Marines have been doing it wrong since about 1952. That’s around the time that the Smokey bear hat and the structured chaos of boot camp kicked into gear. Don’t get me wrong: the Marines always wrote the book on discipline, but during the 1950’s the MCRDs really stepped up their game.
2. The tone the Army sets in basic training is wrong. The Army trains; the Marines indoctrinate. Do you see the difference? The Marines initiate the recruit into a culture, the Army trains them in tasks. Sure, the Army has core values that are really good. The values make sense and they are motivating, but the Marines ingrain it deeper into a youngster’s soul.
While the Army does change the person’s life, it does not instill the intrinsic values in the same way that the Marines do. Unless you are in an elite Army unit like Infantry, Airborne, Rangers, Special Forces, or Delta, you just don’t have the warrior ethos that the Army claims it builds. If you are a motivated gung-ho individual and you are not in an elite unit, the Army (or at least fellow soldiers) treat you like an oddball. How do I know this? I have spent a total of about 30 years around it, and I have been in Airborne, Infantry, and attached to Special Ops units, as well as regular units. In the Marines, gung-ho motivation is business as usual. You stand out if you aren’t highly motivated.
3. The Marines base their training on indoctrinating the individual into the core values of the Marines. Their training relies heavily on close order drill. They believe that drill instills a sense of teamwork and attention to detail that no other activity can. Drill teaches an individual that there are immediate consequences for an individual’s actions on their group. In other words, when one guy messes up a movement, it doesn’t go unnoticed. That soldier makes his squad look bad, that squad affects the platoon, and so on. Have you ever seen one guy in a formation either doing something late or doing the wrong movement? It sticks out like dog balls!
Now take this concept - that my actions affect the group as a whole - and apply it to war. If I move and am seen by the enemy, I may not just get myself killed, but my whole squad, platoon, company, etc. When you train with that kind of attention to detail, you are disciplined.
The Army conducts impeccable training in close order drill. In fact, the largest source of failure for students at the drill sergeant school is testing of the drill modules. So why does the Army not march as well as the Marines and why is marching not as high a priority in the Army?
4. The Army introduces combat skills earlier than the Marines do. The Army trains more combat tasks in its basic training that the Marines. Now while this may seem like a good idea, it’s really not. Teaching combat tasks before a person is fully indoctrinated in the love of corps and country is a very bad idea. It's like letting a kid who just learned how to drive enter a NASCAR race. The kid may have great skills, coordination, and reflexes, but the reality is that they have only been driving less than a year.
The Marines realize that indoctrination in the love of God, Country, and Corps has priority over learning “nuts and bolts” training. In fact, if a person is properly indoctrinated, they can be taught the other skills too, ultimately mastering them with more zeal than a person who had not been indoctrinated.
Keeping this in mind, the Marines focus on just a few things in boot camp but they drive those few things home. Drill, core values, marksmanship, fighting spirit, physical fitness, and teamwork are really all you learn in Marine Boot Camp. If a recruit masters these, the rest is strictly academic. They learn the more advanced combat skills in a course called Marine Corps Combat Training (MCT).
The Army on the other hand doesn’t get as in-depth with marksmanship, although they do get proficient at shooting, but then focus on assaulting objectives, fire and maneuver, and other combat tasks Marines don’t see until much later. The Army has removed bayonet fighting from basic training based on the rationale that you are not issued a bayonet downrange (slang term for deployed combat area) and no one uses bayonets in combat anymore.
The Marines approach this concept differently. The Marines believe that bayonet drills and bayonet sparring (pugil stick fighting) instill a killer instinct that can be obtained no other way. The Marines then integrate their bayonet fighting into their own indigenous martial art called MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program). This fighting system employs the concept of “one mind, any weapon.” A motivated Marine can pick up a shovel and kill the bad guys like Sampson swinging a donkey’s jawbone. Why? Because he is indoctrinated in the art and mentality of a warrior. The Army trains warfare - make no mistake - but it takes the front seat over indoctrination.
5. Everything in Marine Boot Camp is done with speed, intensity, and volume. In Army basic you are required to move very fast, but the tone is different. The Marines “count down” every task in boot camp. That means they say “go” or “ready move” and then you have an allotted amount of time to accomplish the task. If you don’t finish in time, you do it again, and again, and again. I saw more count downs in Airborne School than Army basic training.
I think the reason we don’t do this in the Army as much as the Marines do is because of time constraints. We have much bigger platoons and companies in Army basic training and fewer drill sergeants (or DI if you prefer) than the Marines do. You have somewhere to be and you have more skills to learn and there isn’t enough time to keep putting pants on in less than 30 seconds. But look at it this way: the Marines take a longer period of time (13 weeks in the Marines versus the Army’s 9-10 weeks) to train fewer skills and indoctrinate the mind, body, and soul of the recruit.
This might also explain why we do not spend as much time on drill in Army Basic Training. There are lots of skills to be taught and very little time to do so. Every Army unit I have ever served with has been weak in drill. Sure, we can march from point A to point B, but anything beyond that and we need to rehearse. Why? Because in the Army we do not emphasize drill like we ought to. Drill needs to be on the training schedule like PT or any other task. But we do it in basic training and then we let it go.
6. The Marines use a “rebirth system,” so to speak. Marines are not called Marines verbally or in any other way until they have “earned the title.” The Army calls their recruits “soldiers” from day one.
The Marines understand that you are not a full-fledged Marine until you have earned the insignia of the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor (the EGA as Marines call it). This is not done until the very last week in which recruits participate in an event called The Crucible. This is a 56 hour “gut check.” Recruits undergo a hell week, a series of combat team tasks over that 56 hour period on very little food and sleep.
These tasks are not complex. We are not talking about a huge military strategy here. We are talking about moving ammo cans over an obstacle course, evacuating a casualty under fire through the sucking mud, and getting a squad over a distance with obstacles and difficult terrain.
The crucible awards a “badge” or “award”… the EGA. There is a “becoming” associated with graduating Marine Boot Camp. It’s like a caterpillar emerging from a cocoon as a butterfly or in this case, emerging as an elite warrior. This attitude follows the Marine for the rest of his or her life. It is a significant and emotional event that is never ever forgotten. In order to get that similar effect in the Army, you would have to go to Airborne or even Ranger school.
We must find a way to raise the bar in the Army. We must find a way to make the Army an elite concept. It must become more than a catchy slogan “Army Strong” and a way to make money for college. We must return to the Spartan roots that made us great. Because right now? We are not great.
I have been a drill instructor in a prison boot camp (an adult penitentiary down South) for over six years now. We train and rehabilitate non-violent offenders using a 105-day military style boot camp. Before that, I served for 21 years in the regular Army and worked a gig for Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) anti-terrorism training organization for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).
During my military career, I served two tours in South Korea (one of which was retro-actively considered a combat tour because of the unanticipated battle on 23 November 1984), one tour in Germany, two Middle East combat tours, and a total of five and half years as a paratrooper and jumpmaster. I say all this not to spout out my resume, but so that I can assure you that I am absolutely qualified to make the statements I am about to make.
In the last six and a half years since I took on this job, I have been studying to become a drill instructor. Where did I go for my research? The Marine Corps.
I have always been fascinated by the Marines. In fact, I have served alongside them on several occasions. I began reading articles, watching hours and hours of video, and speaking with many Marines (drill instructors and non-drill instructors alike).
Over time, I have become a bit of a self-proclaimed, self-educated expert on Marine training: what they do, how they do it, why they do it, when they do it, etc. In the process of studying their training, I have come to several conclusions. I have also come to several conclusions about the Army, some not so good – some are downright scary.
Here are the things I have learned through my extensive research:
1. The Army runs a softer, “human dignity based” reception and receiving when the recruits arrive. The reception is so weak that it sets a very bad tone for the remainder of not just their training, but for their whole career in the Army. Recruits show up to a firm welcome by the drill sergeants and staff, but it’s not the controlled mayhem of a Marine Corps Recruit Depot (MCRD). In fact, it seems to comfort and reassure soldiers as if to say “calm down and relax, it’s going to be all right.” Now that is all right if that is a message from your mother, but it’s not okay when we are trying to build the next generations of Spartans.
Marine receiving, on the other hand, is a “shock theater” from the minute they get off the bus through their graduation. The mayhem starts when their feet hit the “deck” and it never ever lets up. The discipline and stress is through the roof! The Army reception staff occasionally get perplexed as if to say “silly Private, get over here...shucks, what are you doing?”
In an MCRD, the recruit would be screamed at: ”GET OVER HERE! TOO SLOW, GO BACK! GET OVER HERE! STOP EYEBALLING ME! GET YOUR HEELS TOGETHER! Hey there was something you were supposed to say when told to do something, WHAT WAS IT? RESPOND!…AYE AYE SIR! RESPOND!”
See the difference? Here’s what I always say: weak pick up, weak recruits, strong pick up, strong recruits. That means if you “go in punching,” so to speak, the recruits know you mean business, you are not playing, and you are tougher than they are. You want them to be nearly peeing their pants from fear and stress.
The Army feels we need to treat people with dignity and respect and that people will shut down if screamed at too much. If that were true, the Marines have been doing it wrong since about 1952. That’s around the time that the Smokey bear hat and the structured chaos of boot camp kicked into gear. Don’t get me wrong: the Marines always wrote the book on discipline, but during the 1950’s the MCRDs really stepped up their game.
2. The tone the Army sets in basic training is wrong. The Army trains; the Marines indoctrinate. Do you see the difference? The Marines initiate the recruit into a culture, the Army trains them in tasks. Sure, the Army has core values that are really good. The values make sense and they are motivating, but the Marines ingrain it deeper into a youngster’s soul.
While the Army does change the person’s life, it does not instill the intrinsic values in the same way that the Marines do. Unless you are in an elite Army unit like Infantry, Airborne, Rangers, Special Forces, or Delta, you just don’t have the warrior ethos that the Army claims it builds. If you are a motivated gung-ho individual and you are not in an elite unit, the Army (or at least fellow soldiers) treat you like an oddball. How do I know this? I have spent a total of about 30 years around it, and I have been in Airborne, Infantry, and attached to Special Ops units, as well as regular units. In the Marines, gung-ho motivation is business as usual. You stand out if you aren’t highly motivated.
3. The Marines base their training on indoctrinating the individual into the core values of the Marines. Their training relies heavily on close order drill. They believe that drill instills a sense of teamwork and attention to detail that no other activity can. Drill teaches an individual that there are immediate consequences for an individual’s actions on their group. In other words, when one guy messes up a movement, it doesn’t go unnoticed. That soldier makes his squad look bad, that squad affects the platoon, and so on. Have you ever seen one guy in a formation either doing something late or doing the wrong movement? It sticks out like dog balls!
Now take this concept - that my actions affect the group as a whole - and apply it to war. If I move and am seen by the enemy, I may not just get myself killed, but my whole squad, platoon, company, etc. When you train with that kind of attention to detail, you are disciplined.
The Army conducts impeccable training in close order drill. In fact, the largest source of failure for students at the drill sergeant school is testing of the drill modules. So why does the Army not march as well as the Marines and why is marching not as high a priority in the Army?
4. The Army introduces combat skills earlier than the Marines do. The Army trains more combat tasks in its basic training that the Marines. Now while this may seem like a good idea, it’s really not. Teaching combat tasks before a person is fully indoctrinated in the love of corps and country is a very bad idea. It's like letting a kid who just learned how to drive enter a NASCAR race. The kid may have great skills, coordination, and reflexes, but the reality is that they have only been driving less than a year.
The Marines realize that indoctrination in the love of God, Country, and Corps has priority over learning “nuts and bolts” training. In fact, if a person is properly indoctrinated, they can be taught the other skills too, ultimately mastering them with more zeal than a person who had not been indoctrinated.
Keeping this in mind, the Marines focus on just a few things in boot camp but they drive those few things home. Drill, core values, marksmanship, fighting spirit, physical fitness, and teamwork are really all you learn in Marine Boot Camp. If a recruit masters these, the rest is strictly academic. They learn the more advanced combat skills in a course called Marine Corps Combat Training (MCT).
The Army on the other hand doesn’t get as in-depth with marksmanship, although they do get proficient at shooting, but then focus on assaulting objectives, fire and maneuver, and other combat tasks Marines don’t see until much later. The Army has removed bayonet fighting from basic training based on the rationale that you are not issued a bayonet downrange (slang term for deployed combat area) and no one uses bayonets in combat anymore.
The Marines approach this concept differently. The Marines believe that bayonet drills and bayonet sparring (pugil stick fighting) instill a killer instinct that can be obtained no other way. The Marines then integrate their bayonet fighting into their own indigenous martial art called MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program). This fighting system employs the concept of “one mind, any weapon.” A motivated Marine can pick up a shovel and kill the bad guys like Sampson swinging a donkey’s jawbone. Why? Because he is indoctrinated in the art and mentality of a warrior. The Army trains warfare - make no mistake - but it takes the front seat over indoctrination.
5. Everything in Marine Boot Camp is done with speed, intensity, and volume. In Army basic you are required to move very fast, but the tone is different. The Marines “count down” every task in boot camp. That means they say “go” or “ready move” and then you have an allotted amount of time to accomplish the task. If you don’t finish in time, you do it again, and again, and again. I saw more count downs in Airborne School than Army basic training.
I think the reason we don’t do this in the Army as much as the Marines do is because of time constraints. We have much bigger platoons and companies in Army basic training and fewer drill sergeants (or DI if you prefer) than the Marines do. You have somewhere to be and you have more skills to learn and there isn’t enough time to keep putting pants on in less than 30 seconds. But look at it this way: the Marines take a longer period of time (13 weeks in the Marines versus the Army’s 9-10 weeks) to train fewer skills and indoctrinate the mind, body, and soul of the recruit.
This might also explain why we do not spend as much time on drill in Army Basic Training. There are lots of skills to be taught and very little time to do so. Every Army unit I have ever served with has been weak in drill. Sure, we can march from point A to point B, but anything beyond that and we need to rehearse. Why? Because in the Army we do not emphasize drill like we ought to. Drill needs to be on the training schedule like PT or any other task. But we do it in basic training and then we let it go.
6. The Marines use a “rebirth system,” so to speak. Marines are not called Marines verbally or in any other way until they have “earned the title.” The Army calls their recruits “soldiers” from day one.
The Marines understand that you are not a full-fledged Marine until you have earned the insignia of the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor (the EGA as Marines call it). This is not done until the very last week in which recruits participate in an event called The Crucible. This is a 56 hour “gut check.” Recruits undergo a hell week, a series of combat team tasks over that 56 hour period on very little food and sleep.
These tasks are not complex. We are not talking about a huge military strategy here. We are talking about moving ammo cans over an obstacle course, evacuating a casualty under fire through the sucking mud, and getting a squad over a distance with obstacles and difficult terrain.
The crucible awards a “badge” or “award”… the EGA. There is a “becoming” associated with graduating Marine Boot Camp. It’s like a caterpillar emerging from a cocoon as a butterfly or in this case, emerging as an elite warrior. This attitude follows the Marine for the rest of his or her life. It is a significant and emotional event that is never ever forgotten. In order to get that similar effect in the Army, you would have to go to Airborne or even Ranger school.
We must find a way to raise the bar in the Army. We must find a way to make the Army an elite concept. It must become more than a catchy slogan “Army Strong” and a way to make money for college. We must return to the Spartan roots that made us great. Because right now? We are not great.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 147
I see you say this shit after you retired um from the Army. May I suggest you redo your PHD thesis.
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I did not get a nice reception when I checked into Fort Sill. A screaming and angry Staff Sergeant gave us socks, underwear and T-shirts at Reception before we went to real Basic in September 1988. That first day if Basic my sleeping mat unraveled during the rush to get off the bus and race with all our gear to the pad. After breaking from the herd and getting my stuff I could do nothing right the rest of the day. Four drill sergeants rode my ass ALL DAY LONG. I was so bad I went on KP with another platoon I did not know who watched me come in. But I made friends and got support which was probably unexoected. But it was a very good reprieve. Things evened out. I even became squad leader, graduated, and had a FANTASTIC posting and career in a firing platoon.
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I have no idea what goes on today, my experience is 43 years old. I know in 76, Army basic training was a joke. But we did have to do guard duty at the Rusty Nail at Fort Knox, a Marine tanker bar on post, and honestly, I never saw a lot there that overly impressed me either. But the draft had just ended, and maybe all the services at that point were struggling to fill boots, I don't know. I have always had respect for someone who made it through Paris Island, but that does not make them a demi God, just someone who could suck it up for a few months and endure the brutal experience.
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There are two main differences between the USMC and the Army. First is size. The Marines are just a corp, the Army has many corps size units. Se one is mission. The phrase "every Marine a rifleman" really does apply. That goes for women, too. Ever notice the Marine Corps has no medics? Navy corpsman are assigned to infantry units.
I did army OSUT at Ft. Benning and it was just as you describe (Charlie 7-1). The one week reception at Ft. Jackson was way more laid back. This is another difference...there are only two places for Marine Corps boot camp and the reception station is the same place. The group in my reception outfit had people going all over for basic.
I also did jump school at Benning (44th Company, Death From Above!). And it was even more indoctrinating.
With so many non-combat oriented positions, the Army has to be different in training.
I did army OSUT at Ft. Benning and it was just as you describe (Charlie 7-1). The one week reception at Ft. Jackson was way more laid back. This is another difference...there are only two places for Marine Corps boot camp and the reception station is the same place. The group in my reception outfit had people going all over for basic.
I also did jump school at Benning (44th Company, Death From Above!). And it was even more indoctrinating.
With so many non-combat oriented positions, the Army has to be different in training.
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Sometimes comparisons is not good. When ever you compare your self with someone else (especially someone you admire you will come up short). You sited all the pro and con with army training. Also mabe you should look at retention numbers of the two forces? You cant say one is better than the other until you factor in the retention, rate, promotion rate, usmj rate even suicides rate before you lable one a successful at making a fighting machine. Comparing the to is not apples to apples. Ever corp is different, but the question I have is are they effective? I am sure the aswer is yes. They reason you go army, navy are air force is because you don't want to be a marine. Best regards
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We can all sit here and pat ourselves on the back and boast about what we did/ do for any branch of the service. We even put one branch above another as long as we served in that branch we are putting over. But to sit here and say one branch is better because you read about it is just wrong. I served 26 years active duty in the Army, My father served 14 years in the Marine Corps before passing away as a result of Vietnam, I read book and tried to find out as much as I could about the Marines and my father, does that make me an expert on the Marines No. what that make me is a Marine Corp brat, who later joined the Army and became a expert in they need of me at the time
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Shoot, I'm ex-Navy. There was nothing reassuring when I arrived at "Great Mistakes". It was non-stop screaming for at least the first four weeks. What has the Army turned into?
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I don't know when you went to boot. I went in the 70's and sand hill was kick ass boot and inf school.
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The Army sounds like the air force. You march in basic and not much after that
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I feel that Army has gotten softer since 1982 when I went to OSUT in Fort Sill, OK. I still believe that I could've been an even better soldier had I done 10 weeks of basic training instead 8, and 7 weeks AIT instead of 5. I'm a cannon crewman.
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I would say if you are basing this off of say Ft. Jackson standards you may be correct, but if you are basing this off of OSUT you are wrong. I agree that the non combat basic needs an overhaul, heck the army is actually overhauling OSUT as well making it longer. I know when Ft. Knox had both OSUT and regular basic the standard was pretty high, but the army decide to ship TRADOC training off post.
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Having served on active duty (‘89-‘96) army. I observed the quota push in the early ‘90’s. Don’t get me wrong some of those leaders I would have followed to hell & back. But I’ve had NCOIC’s that I couldn’t understand (broken English). Other times as a corporal, I have to refresh (E-7’s & an E-8) SGT’s on D & C. Because they spent their entire career in a MEDAC & wore civilian close to work. And never what real army was (#FieldUnit)
AIR ASSAULT
AIR ASSAULT
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SPC Cesar Freytes
Wow your English is not the best don't criticize others, and you have spell check at your disposal
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Hang my head if this pussy-fyd crap has become acceptable behavior in the Army. I often think back to my basic training in 1975 at Knox. Old wooden barracks. And bless those Vietnam grunt DI's. They kicked our asses ever day.
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Yawn, multiple factual inaccuracies in this from the Army side. Apples and oranges at best.
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So much butthurt.
The Army does a lot of things right in my opinion. What a lot of people fail to see is the “Sh*tbaggery” that a lot of marines fall into once they hit the fleet.
The Army does a lot of things right in my opinion. What a lot of people fail to see is the “Sh*tbaggery” that a lot of marines fall into once they hit the fleet.
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You lost me when you said “Air Borne is an elite school” and “Drill is just as important as PT” Is that really the best use of our time?
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SPC Cesar Freytes
Shut up your Air Force Well slap you when we need shit and a newby Air Force at that.
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I see your point... but the army is much bigger and train in basic for over 200 career fields... the marine basically make all there people be a infantry soldier... we have special training after basic to horn the skill necessary for the career field you selected... don't fix what not broke....
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I started reading Leatherneck Magazine when I was 12 or 14. My plan was to join the Corps when I graduated highschool. My Dad and Uncle both pushed me to join the AF for the "technical training. I did so but at the end of four years the AF offered Jump Scchool and Combat Control Career field.
During the next 26 years I had great oppertunities to work with and train with Navy SEALS, complete SCUBA and HALO/ HAHO training work with the British and Australian SAS. The German GSG9, The Danish Yeager Corps and many other Special Operations Forces. I had a great career but still wish somewhere in there I had served in the USMC.would have wanted to have been in Force Recon or MARSOC.
During the next 26 years I had great oppertunities to work with and train with Navy SEALS, complete SCUBA and HALO/ HAHO training work with the British and Australian SAS. The German GSG9, The Danish Yeager Corps and many other Special Operations Forces. I had a great career but still wish somewhere in there I had served in the USMC.would have wanted to have been in Force Recon or MARSOC.
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Excellent article but the Marines are, for all intents and purposes, an elite group. They are meant to be an infantry on steroids. They are the Green Berets, Airborne and all other special forces rolled into one. They are Spartans....the 300.
The army is like one responder said, “close to a million” whereas the Marines less than 200K. They are trained different to be different.
As a soldier, my Marine cousin and I used to take jabs at each other but there was no one I would trust more to have my back, even now as veterans .
Marines have a different mentality even before recruitment. They volunteer for that training and any man or woman wearing that EGA has my respect.
The Army may seem softer but their training covers the aspects that compliment the Marines and what all branches bring to the table make our military complete.
The army is like one responder said, “close to a million” whereas the Marines less than 200K. They are trained different to be different.
As a soldier, my Marine cousin and I used to take jabs at each other but there was no one I would trust more to have my back, even now as veterans .
Marines have a different mentality even before recruitment. They volunteer for that training and any man or woman wearing that EGA has my respect.
The Army may seem softer but their training covers the aspects that compliment the Marines and what all branches bring to the table make our military complete.
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I am a Marine and retired Soldier, very well written, hit the nail on the head. I was Seen as an old fashioned leader in the Army.
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The Marines are looking for a few good men, the Army just needs as many people as they can push thru training
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When GEN Shinseki took the black beret away from the Rangers and made it a "leg beret" because he saw some squared away 75th Rangers at a JFK SWC memorial and he figured, wrongly, that the beret made the soldier so lets give it to everyone so everyone will be squared away. This fits nicely into your statements on mentality between soldiers and marines. You are also correct that indoc in the USMC is one of the things that makes a private in the USMC better than a US Army private. Respect. That is why 1st units receiving newly minted soldiers are bitching about shit bag privates. The Army is reaping what it sowed over the last 15 to 20 years. Having been a reservist DS and working with both reservist and active duty drills, I have learned 2 things. 1) Prior service Marines make the best soldiers. 2) Prior service Marine DI's make the best US Army DS's. Now, I do recognize that there are exceptions to everything. Like you stated, Rangers/Infantry/Airborne/SF/CAG are the exceptions that I know of. There are also other exceptions to where the USMC isn't always the best either and they have their shitbags also. Just my 2 cents.
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Well said, Ssgt. Everything you said is important, but the most important was this: " the Army trains, the Marines indoctrinate"
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Concur. I appreciate how Marines are riflemen first, their assigned duty specialty second. I believe all Marines CAN be riflemen as a result but not all Soldiers can and do.
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I guess this guy joined after the middle 70’s. Basic training was rough. I seen a dozen guys not make it through. However on 1980 I was yelling at one of the guys in my squad. He started crying, he said the drill sergeants didn’t even yell at them. He also mentions several hard core units. I thought my Calvary Regiment, the 11th ACR was a pretty hardcore outfit.
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Well thought out critique, SSG Watson! Any one who gets upset over a critique needs to think real hard WHY he/she is getting upset or even angry. Then they are in a far better position to respond logically.
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Good points and when I entered basic training in the Army in 1971 the DI’s were on our ass from the gitgo, but they were all combat veterans and they sincerely were trying to train us to survive the war in SE asia. They had all internalized that mission because of comrades they had already lost. And if you couldn’t adjust they had special training platoons that were almost Draculan in their training and they came out good soldiers or were deemed pretty worthless, back then you weren’t allowed to just quit because it hurt your feelings , But irregardless, where the rubber meets the road is Combat performance, is there a profound difference when the shooting starts? Has anyone ever evaluated this, as it would be more telling if successful training strategies than anecdotal impressions, though not to negate the importance of trained observation
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I will have to say that the army has changed a lot. I spent 23 years in the army. But, when I joined, it wasn't like it is now. We were petrified of our drill instructors, all the way through AIT. We learned to respect our leaders and NCO's. I just recently retired and I could tell the difference in the type of soldiers the army is recruiting now, compared to 20 years ago. Now it is quantity not quality.
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I see that you've given this a great deal of thought. I believe that experience as an Army DS may have helped you reach different conclusions.
How many Army receptions did you observe, or participate in, to reach the conclusions about Army training?
I disagree with many of your assertions, and believe they lack an awareness of what actually happens during Army basic training.
I served as a DS, and am certain the experiences of my Soldiers wasn't what you described. I was the Detachment Sergeant for HHD, 82nd CM BN in 2001, when TRADOC implemented a standardized zero day. I personally observed and evaluated the initial implementation, and don't believe it was comforting, or otherwise as you described. Inprocessing and reception at the Reception Station, where the Soldiers get their initial issue and wait to ship to their unit may not match the reception at the Marine Corps, but that doesn't support the conclusions presented.
I don't disagree that the Marine Corps is more indoctrination, but disagree with the majority of your conclusions, based on my first hand experience.
I do agree that the Marine Corps has done a better job at teaching its history to recruits.
How many Army receptions did you observe, or participate in, to reach the conclusions about Army training?
I disagree with many of your assertions, and believe they lack an awareness of what actually happens during Army basic training.
I served as a DS, and am certain the experiences of my Soldiers wasn't what you described. I was the Detachment Sergeant for HHD, 82nd CM BN in 2001, when TRADOC implemented a standardized zero day. I personally observed and evaluated the initial implementation, and don't believe it was comforting, or otherwise as you described. Inprocessing and reception at the Reception Station, where the Soldiers get their initial issue and wait to ship to their unit may not match the reception at the Marine Corps, but that doesn't support the conclusions presented.
I don't disagree that the Marine Corps is more indoctrination, but disagree with the majority of your conclusions, based on my first hand experience.
I do agree that the Marine Corps has done a better job at teaching its history to recruits.
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SSG Lon Watson
I went to drill sergeant school, shadowed drill sergeants, and boom! Had an accident in training (not my fault), was nearly killed! Woke up in a hospital and didn’t get to graduate.
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Well duh. Soldiers are a different group. Hell from guard to reserves to active are a different group. Not bad...just different.
I was active for 6 years as paratrooper in the 82ND for quite some time. Now I'm a guardsman, they are both soldiers but completely different.
It's more of a willing to fight spirit in the Army to a "we're the best at war" mentality. Honestly running a support element I love guardsmen, in a battle please give me marines, or better rangers
I was active for 6 years as paratrooper in the 82ND for quite some time. Now I'm a guardsman, they are both soldiers but completely different.
It's more of a willing to fight spirit in the Army to a "we're the best at war" mentality. Honestly running a support element I love guardsmen, in a battle please give me marines, or better rangers
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