Respect began when the Army began

I concur we should respect our Soldiers. If you are the type of leader who chooses to expell a fountain of profanity, all the the time it will become ineffective. I do not cuss however a mentor of mine once said "A well placed "F" in conversation can be effective."

I totally agreed, we should be treating our American best Soldier with dignity and respect. When I joined the Army back in the 90's that was the culture, the yelling and the cursing. But now we have a become a more aware and professional Army. I remember the words of wisdom that my SGM Joseph said to me "only ignorant people swear or curse for their lack of knowledge and words".

I am a Christian; I do not curse. I do not generally ask SM's to refrain from profanity in my presence, as I expected the profanity when I joined. If they ask about my preference -- as sometimes happens -- I tell them.
It would please me to no end to never hear another curse word, especially the casual strings of F-bombs and other profanity that I hear so often at work.

I've actually had my peers try to talk me into cursing, and tell me that the Army will make me a curser. I responded that that may be so, but for now I have both the discipline and the vocabulary to abstain from profanity.

there are pros and cons to profanity example private please bring me the ammo can. private can you hurry and bring me the ammo can. private move you fing ass and bring me that can stop pussy footing around and get the job done we all want to go home.
The simple start is to ask in a nice way and then increase if they do not get the message then cus at them maybe that will get the attention if it still doesn't work then start throwing stuff at them or remedial training respect is earned not given. There is the saying you half to respect the rank not them person but if you respect them both then you have one hell of a leader and should learn from that person. As far as just standing around and cussing there is no real call for it it just shows your lack of intelligence and sheds your self in a bad light I was a 19 delta cav scout and also a combat life saver there are times I needed to yell to get it across to someone to get the lead out of there ass and move

While I served I had the dipleasure of have several leaders see it as their mission to force out soldiers they did like. I have a very good friend who would very like have been a career enlisted soldier, but when it came time to reup he was ready to be done.

At 3 seoerate time in my career I fractured my ankle, after the first time I went from a pt score of 280 down to a 230-250 because running became very difficult for me. At the time of the first injury it was thought I had a bad sprain, it took 3 more years and two more injury's for a doctor to order xryas and see the damaged that had been done, had surgery but was never the same. Long runs were difficult and I was often asked by members of my leadership if I just wanted to quit and they would make sure I got discharged. I spent 4 years with a Sgt major wanting to kick me out for being overweight and my higher than squadron average PT score.
For me Respect was very hard to come by because while I was very respected by pilots and other maint personal for my quality of work and ability to do my job, I was a bad soldier and received little to no respect from some of my immediate leadership chain.

It all worked out for me, but that potential career soldier got out and went to college like me. Only difference is he is going back in as an officer, he receives his commission this summer.

Good leaders can motivate soldiers to be their best, while bad ones can make good soldiers go bad. I had leaders who it was a honor and pleasure to work for, who I would strive to make look as good as I could. Late in my career I had some of those guys that I had wished I had earlier, maybe I would have ended up staying in.

Amen! Respect is universal. There is a big difference between challenging a soldier to meet the standard and being a tyrant.

If soldiers don't want to perform, just chapter them. There is no need to go full metal jacket. The regulations are there to get rid of problem soldiers. We're just not using them correctly.

Many leaders need to understand the difference between fear and respect. Respect is something you earn. Fear is something you attempt to take without permission. Are you an honest broker or a thief?

If your soldiers will not follow you unless you make them afraid or threaten them, then it is YOU and your poor leadership that is the problem, or they simply cannot adapt and need to be separated.

This does NOT mean that you do not challege them. In fact I think many new soldiers are not challenged enough. We are robbing them of a sense of accomplishment after hard work and struggle if we do not challenge them. They deserve that feeling of self worth through validation. It often becomes intoxicating, which leads to habitual good performance and progress. They are not numbers, bodies, or pax. They are men and women!

This also does not mean that you cannot be direct with them. They need to know the truth. I cannot stand leaders that lie becuase they are hiding something or they think they can minipulate soldiers. That is NOT leadership. That is a lack of integrity! There is not reason to get in their face in a threatening manner that would otherwise earn you a punch in the mouth on the street. Sit down with the soldier and tell them how they are messing up, how to improve, and support them throughout that process. You will earn a lifetime of respect. I promise you!

Remember, you might meet one of these soldiers again in the future. Maybe on a battlefield where you need to count on them. Will they be there for you if they hate your guts? Will they go the extra mile for you?

Nowhere in any regulation is tyranny supported. Playing games with interpretation and relying on "tradition" is a cop out. If we are ready to throw regulations in their face when they do something wrong, then why do so many leaders kick moral values and regulation to the curb to take a leadership shortcut to employ fear and intimidation?

NCO's, I leave your with one line. "ALL SOLDIERS ARE ENTITLED TO OUTSTANDING LEADERSHIP".

Entitled means they deserve it regardless of your opinion. It's not optional. We need to start thinking of that line as a punitive regulation.

Wow, I am shocked that someone voted down this post, twice. At what point does becoming a soldier mean that you have to endure profanity, at what point does it mean to be a soldier that you have to use profanity at a subordinate. Did we lose our ability to communicate. I just don't get it. Don't get me wrong, I swear, I use to swear a lot, but I learned not to do it around those that found it objectionable, just like I learned not to smoke around those who found that objectionable. I am all for treating those the way I would like to be treated.

If the soldier has a preference to not hear swear words and has made this preference known, then, out of respect, I would try to watch my language around them. With that said however, if someone can't handle some profanity in the military, then Lord help them when the fit hits the shan...

Also, it has been posited that people who swear a lot tend to me more honest and loyal...

http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/publications/observer/2012/may-june-12/the-science-of-swearing.html

In a word: Professionalism.

I slightly cringe when I hear individuals tout it is a softer or new Army. I believe it is an advanced Army and we have proven the ability to accomplish the same tasks with "less." That includes motivating and developing young Soldiers.

Everyone deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. If one needs to curse, constantly scream, or belittle their subordinates in order to garner results, then it is highly possible that the issue lies within the leader, not the Soldiers.

As a platoon sergeant, I was rightfully chewed out by my First Sergeant from time to time. I was not perfect, but I strived to be better. I never took it personally simply because my First Sergeant did not take my errors personally.

Nowadays, if a Soldier or leader habitually fails to perform, I never feel the need to exude an overzealous attitude, raw anger, or disrespect. It is just as effective to start the process to help that Soldier exit the Army. I know some individuals will retort that different units or branches have a different mindset or climate. I get that. I do. If someone does something that threatens safety, sterns words alone will not cut it. But, I truly believe that professionalism is not a grey area.

Now that looks like a ARMY bootcamp getting DROPPED and give me 1000 pushups photo op!? that recruit is probably pissing his pants..or saying FK what did I get into? or I won't do that again whatever it was he did. In the NAVY it was the same thing. I remember watching a lot of dudes just getting hammered dropped for a long time. I guess I scored well enough 70 on the ASVAB to be put in a decent company with other kids similar, as we were called a FLAG company. Regardless few got dropped and the kids that did not fit in got processed out of boot in a few weeks and never graduated. I was awarded a MERITORIOUS Paygrade Achievement Advancement award at graduation not knowing it was even available to earn, until it was handed to me, which really well bonded me to the NAVY and serving and succeeding. I won't get into the details of my enlistment, which I study, day and night, now 2014-15, 20 years removed from NAVY boot. But lets say things took a quick turn left and right north and south, as the training I had, and the billet was given did not match well as it was like putting a 1st grader in 10th grade and expecting good results as I review my personnel and enlistment history documentation, mixed with the "High Priority Unit" COMBAT SHIP, and things I was thrown into with my limited training, during the downsizing of the military in the 1990s squeezing the manpower with the OPTEMPO of the fleet staying the same or increasing would be felt even at muster in the days working orders, really started to get to me as the morale was low, but evals were passing, I suppose, but complaints on physicals of my "worry of the stress I felt in my heart down to my left hand",( of what I know realize after studying what I wrote in 1997 were symptoms of panic attacks attributed to hazardous duties I would be doing with very minimal experience or training), went completely 100 percent untreated undiagnosed, as the 2 or 3 enlisted CORPSMAN on the ship basically ignored and did not even take a blood pressure test(The ship did not have a MEDICAL OFFICER attached). Within that same year or the NEXT year, we had a change in COmmand Master Chiefs the highest enlisted top dog who just happened to have the same job as I did hence he was in the same department, had a nice(in his eyes) 1 on 1 physical meet and greet, FAN ROOM COUNSELING SESSION, after walking in on a conversation about my uniform needing a some tidying out at sea with a leading petty officer. Basically this new e9 that I did not know well but thought he had to kick a little dog down the street to prove a point. And he invited me" requested my assistance to work on some mooring lines alone" and once that hatch was closed WHAM BAM no thank you man...he thought he raised my obedience or somehow corrected something. Infact what he did do what make me feel fucking retarded and in the end I hated leadership, never got counseling, as the small ships did not have appropriate health programs, kept it to myself as talking about it to others just did not seem to really have any way of solving it in my head, fumed inside mad all the rest of my life basically, distancing myself from my then fiance getting dumped, blowing up on my mom over the phone all of the sudden acting really defensive all of a sudden, then discharged somehow honorably but a complete mess with no SEPARATION PHYSICAL(I Just realized to go over my handful of physicals and lousy chronological health care from 94-02) became a lunatic street fighter anxiety of people even really just looking at me, more interested in fighting then holding a job, got fired from every job I could get in civilian life eventually just giving up by 2005 embarressed and then suicide hospital embarresed upset broke and homeless...and amazingly never once bringing up that I was assaulted or was even in the military and honorably discharged to the civilian psych doctors who were trying to figure me out..then 2011 a complete mess just applied and got SSDI for anxiety and mood disorder...

that is what can happen from an older man who uses his fists to talk.to a younger man..who can not run away..and can not protect himself...while really freaking conflicted that he is smart.and originally was all about serving honorably and with valor and all the other good words...

Respect is earned never given, With that being said if you feel like you have to force your soldiers to respect you you are already failing. I would rather a soldier do the right thing because they do not want to let me down rather than they do the right thing because they don't want me to punish them for messing up. As far as profanity in the military there is a time and place and if you are counseling, coaching or mentoring soldiers there is no place for it. There are a few UCMJ Articles on this topic not directly profanity but "provoking words" Article 117. If it is directed towards another service member or soldier in a negative way it is provoking words and it is prohibited under UCMJ Article 117.

MSG, I couldn't agree more. I have a favorite quote that I often use. I tell young Soldiers to expect and demand great leadership. Then I'll add “There’s a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates.”
- General George Patton Jr
Leaders need to respect their subordinates if they want respect in return.

I can handle a little profanity but when a Superior begins an ass chewing with " you stupid F--kers are gonna pay, its ears of

I always told my guys that respect is earned and that they never had to show any respect to anybody; however courtesy should always be shown to everybody at all times, and the courtesies cannot be lost. Respect is a feeling, and not action; courtesy on the other hand is manner of conduct. When I salute an officer it was not out of respect it was out of courtesy, and their return was (Even if it had a coffee cup, cigarette, pen, or other crap that they happened to have in their hand) a courtesy because they didn't know me, and to expect them to have some respect for me was impractical, and untrue.

I think that I was not always courteous to my Marines as I should have been, and would do things differently now. I did however respect them.

I'm 100% certain that those claiming profanity at work offends them also do not watch movies or listen to music with any profanity in them whatsoever...right?

I NEVER told my soldiers to do something, instead I asked them to do it and often said please. I never had to EXPLAIN why they should do it and not someone else and feel that my soldiers and soldiers in other squads and platoons respected me more than NCOs that TOLD them.

Basic training requires a particular method of Leadership to build and tear down the enlistee, through out the training cycle this promotes team building and survival afterwards. We as their leaders are tasked with an insurmountable responsibility, to these young people and profanities isn't a set standard we promulgate as the norm! When you get out of basic things become a little less hectic, now you go on to continue further training and your leaders are not to exhibit dictator type behavior! That would blatantly be in violation of the UCMJ and code of conduct as a senior NCO, and taken to the command senior enlisted for resolution. Come on ladies /gentleman as leaders you set the standard by leading by example not through ignorance, if you've lost touch in how to be an effective leader step down and or retire!

I cursed a lot in the Army, just never at the soldiers.

This is for everyone; and my take, if you are using cursing as a part of your everyday speaking then I can tell you; you wont last in the civilian world. I have heard a lot of cursing in my days of the marines and it is not affective in getting someone to do something. if you are an grown man or women, no one should have to curs at you to do the right thing. and people this may sound like it is a good thing to do while in uniform today. but what happens when you have to at some point hang your uniform up and make that great transition over to civilian life. some people that I have ran into are having problems finding work today because of their mouth. we are living in an super sensitive world and if you go onto a job and use words from the military talking to civilians of younger age and older who do not understand you; you wont be working long. all I am saying is be careful of how you use your words.

I actually greatly appreciate this idea. I am a chaplain candidate presently, so I'm in that class of Soldiers that, traditionally, other Soldiers are less likely to swear around. But other members of my church don't swear, either, as a rule.

Aside from that, it is much more professional not to swear. Just as we have a clean haircut and shave, keep our uniforms in good condition, and render proper courtesies to others, profanity has a very real impact on our professionalism and our professional appearance.

Can I 'deal' with profanity? Sure. I've had more than enough exposure to know that I can 'deal' with it. But it still bothers me a little, deep down. I think your comparison to cigarette smoke is apt—I believe profanity has an analogous, harmful effect on me as well, so when appropriate I try to excuse myself from situations where profanity is particularly excessive.

But I could see this being a reason why some very capable Soldiers may choose not to continue with our organization. It's at least enough to think twice about instead of responding with the ever-inspiring "IT'S THE ARMY, DEAL WITH IT!" Adapting to others' needs is not always a weakness, sometimes it's the best and the smartest thing you can do.

Which is why I rarely barked orders at those under me. When it was normal work, ie PMS I always asked them to take care of it. The response one gets from asking and dictating is night and day.

The only time I actually swore at them was when they did something utterly stupid, the profanity gave the message a harder hit and understanding the seriousness of what they did.

I've followed most of those that were under me when I was a leading petty officer and those that stayed in are either LPO's now or Chiefs and have mentioned that they built their leadership foundation on the way I ran the division, which I had built upon from my LPO when I was there. I took note of what worked and what didn't and knew how I wanted to be treated so treated those that were under me the same way which is like a human being and not just some minion.

The core principle for my leadership is and has always been take care of your people and they will take care of you.

MSG Miles:

John 15:18 "“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first."

You and I both know the path is wide, the gate is narrow. Standing up for them because it is right is the way that are we called to do it. Profanity unfortunately is part of our culture, right wrong or indifferent. I am going to be perfectly honest that a well placed curse word has slipped at a very appropriate time. Besides, a trailer hitch to the shin causes a lot of pain.

As temporary as that is, I am convinced that at one point or another, we will all come to a conclusion that there is a better way, no matter what it might be. Bottom line rests with the troop though: don t like it, address it with the individual. If the leader is worth his salt, he ll know to change his communication style in the future with that particular soldier. If he doesn't, then I am also convinced that it will show in some other aspect of an NCOER, FITREP, etc. Bound to happen due to projection or any other defense mechanism. Its human nature.

MSG,

I have seen it both ways, leaders verbally abusing their subordinates and leaders using increased levels of language to get things done and to keep people safe. Me personally, I have thick skin so when I see it a say something regardless if I'm gonna catch something too. A good leader can tell when a soldier is to that point when what your saying is causing more harm than education.

It's not about people being snowflakes or ponies or whatever. It's about respectful communicating where the desired intent is understood by the intended audience.

Most people that defend their abusive language in my experience have problems communicating. If you are not speaking to a soldier in a way that gets your desired outcome than way are you doing it? If the only reason is it makes you fill more comfortable or that is how it was done to you, then it is time for some retraining. Having boots and a weapon does not mean you have to be a jerk. I would rather mentor and teach in a way the soldier responded to so when I needed them to use those skills in combat it's there. Be professional and hold them to an unwavering standard, too easy.

If they start cursing at me, I stop listening served me well for the most part, got in a few discussions with company comanders because of it. but ucmj charges or hearings,, and lost a couple of jobs because of it... and was guilty of it when a very young NCO... I learned fast over a platoon of crewchiefs If I wanted something done,,, 1. Tell what needs to be done .2.. ask if they had questions... 3... and then let them decide how to get it done and be there to be sure they get What they need to get them job done....

Their are no athiest in foxholes.

The scenario seems based on the premise that a person (soldier or otherwise) has a right to NOT be offended. The premise is, in itself, contrary to our 1st Amendment rights. We have a right to speak as we wish, say what we wish, etc. Whether or not that speech is relevant, offensive, professional, or not we have the right to it. I choose not to curse. I believe that cursing is the fallback for a small vocabulary, or a small imagination. A person should be able to express a preference that others refrain from cursing in their presence. The offending speaker should also be mature and aware enough to alter his/her speech. Would it be enough for me to terminate my employment? Or theirs? No, it just tells me who I'm dealing with.

Beyond that I think that we, as a society, need to work past this whole idea that "I have a right not to be offended." That's why we have all this PC and sensitivity training. Case in point: The private business owner in New England who was complained to by a muslim woman because the business was advertising "bacon". The word bacon was deemed offensive, and we subsequently removed from the signage. Absurd.

I agree. I myself left the Army in 1993 because of the way certain higher ranked personal treated those under their charge (myself included). Eventhough i loved the Army and where i was stationed, I couldn't stand the thougt of going through the abuse any more. I ended up missing the Army life greatly and went back in into the Army NG after 9/11. Thats when i learned not all leaders are cruel. I the deployed to Iraq for OIF III. Spent a total of 8 yrs serving our great country before injuries forced me back out. I would still serve if i could. Long story short, don't let bad the leaders push you out, do your best and one day you can lead by example.

Respect is something that is taught at home. If you are not learning respect until you enter military service, then there is a problem. Like one of the other gentlemen stated, I too am one that if I am smiling and quiet, there is a problem. Be afraid, be very afraid.

I respect every Soldier I meet, from the lowest PVT to the Senior GO's. They all get respect, but it is expected in return as well. I do not curse at my customers or employees for that matter. All of my customers are Soldiers and if in a conversation a swear word comes out, then so be it. I don't get bent out of shape about that. unfortunately, that is how some have been raised to talk. I have no problem with it until it is directed at me or my staff. Then we have issues.

I did my time in uniform, and have since decided to continue my time on the civilian side of the military. It doesn't matter what your rank is, I will not be disrespected. I don't need to meet your cursing with my own (very colorful), I have other ways of getting my point across.

Somewhere along the line in the past decade or so, the military changed. Customs and Courtesies are no longer either being taught in Basic, or people no longer care. There is too much of a sense of entitlement with people today. If you walk in my office and the first thing that comes to your mind and out of your mouth is that I am just another civilian and I know nothing about "The Real Military," we will have issues. People need to get over themselves and the idea that they are owed something just because they served. Yes I understand they deserve their benefits, but that it, nothing else. Is respect something that is not being taught anymore?

If the Soldier in this piece didn't know why the leader was cursing at him or ask to see someone over this leader, then unfortunately, being an adult in age makes you not a Grown Man.

While I don't believe loads of profanity is professional, a little goes a long way. I think its going to happen and when it does we need to pull up our big boy/girl pants and discern the environment it just happened in. Also its the setting, who's there, etc. No I don't think tons of profanity is good, But we don't need to be knit picky whiners either.

I agree with most of what you said, msgt.

I would only add a few things to the discussion, this isn't meant to take away but to actually add to what you put forth.

1. Youth today both within and outside the military have great difficulty respecting authority. The military is up the river on this one, because you can only down so hard on young minds before its up to the young person to weigh and consider what their real values and morals are. Which leads to number two...

2. When youth get older and become NCOs or Officers, they'll still take that youth-mindset with them. I think much of what you observed in your post is this. Today's 30ish, 40ish NCOs and Officers were youth that were recruit at some point, and took that lack of respect with them as they made rank. They can't respect subordinates without putting them down needlessly because when they were subordinates, they couldn't respect fellow soldiers or their superiors either. Those that survived the NCOers and boards learned to squeak by through political gaming, backstabbing, saying one thing and doing another, and doing what was necessary to lie about their daily productivity. I believe respect goes both ways, but a big way of showing respect to superiors (at least this is what I've come to believe) is being able to be candid but truthful with your boss. Military leaders definitely need subordinates that can are willing to be candid and honest, or how else is a leader to function with the needs of the Army first? To me, lying to a superior about basic things or adopting a check the box mentality to promote a zero-defect mentality, and avoiding hard subjects is sending your boss just as much disrespect as the boss yelling at you or humiliating you publicly. Saluting or getting at parade rest when authority figures are around is easy. Keeping your military bearing while being honest with the CSM or battalion Colonel is far harder for a lower enlisted soldier. That doesn't mean for the lower enlisted to hold forth or berate his peers, but being honest in communication is something that too many in today's Army just don't know how to do. For young guys who do not know what respect is, its easier to 'Yes sir or Yes ma'am' an officer with a salute, say whatever it is you think they want to hear, and leave the situation as soon as possible.

With that being said, I've never gotten a real straight answer for these things either. There was a time I was like a lot of lower enlisted guys, griping about why things are the way they are, until I went to Afghanistan. Then I realized it from how authority figures might see things: when they know they are getting canned behavior from subordinates, but then see these same subordinates goofing off, and their NCOs are not much better, despair sets in the mind real quick. It becomes easier to just yell and berate people as they walk by you.