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As leaders, we should automatically respect our subordinates at all times. There is a stark difference between leadership and dictatorship. As soon as the leaders in the military figure this out, they will notice a peak in the retention rate of their Soldiers.
I have communicated with over 300 Soldiers who are eligible to extend their enlistment contract within the past few months and was shocked to hear the responses from some of them. One Soldier mentioned, “I would remain in the military but cannot understand why I’m getting cursed out when asked to do something. I am a grown man!” I asked this same Soldier if he’d discuss with his leaders the disrespect he feels and he said that he had spoken with them about it. My final question to him was, “So what did they say?” He replied, “They said that I am a Soldier and if I can’t handle it, get out!”
As a leader myself, I apologized to this Soldier and informed him that some leaders are called leaders because of their position or title, not because of their leadership. I then annotated in the retention book that he was not going to extend his contract but instead, leave the military because of the disrespect from his leadership.
Must a Soldier be a Chaplain to get respected? Can a Soldier who informs his or her chain of command that the speaking of profanity is against their religion be provided the same respect that a chaplain receives? Should fellow Soldiers respect these Soldiers? To me, the answer is quite simple. We should.
I am one of these Soldiers. I am a non-paid minister at a local church. The Soldiers who are aware of this duty respect the fact I am a Soldier and a minister. I've expressed to others that I would like for them to be themselves while in my presence, as I would perceive unrealism if they would change their talk, speech, or attitude just because I was standing around in the vicinity. Some disagreed but others said okay and would use profanity as if I’m not around. It didn’t then and doesn’t bother me a bit. However, there might be Soldiers that are affected by vulgar and demeaning language and I believe this should be respected.
If smoking a cigarette around a non-smoker is a sign of disrespect, I believe using profanity around a non-profanity speaker falls within the same guidelines if the Soldier speaks up. Leaders must understand that profanity can be damning to a lot of people. The “F” word has been known to cause havoc, begin fights, and unfortunately result in someone being killed. To tell a Soldier to deal with the disrespect because you're a Soldier is unacceptable.
This is not a new Army. Respect began when the Army began.
I have communicated with over 300 Soldiers who are eligible to extend their enlistment contract within the past few months and was shocked to hear the responses from some of them. One Soldier mentioned, “I would remain in the military but cannot understand why I’m getting cursed out when asked to do something. I am a grown man!” I asked this same Soldier if he’d discuss with his leaders the disrespect he feels and he said that he had spoken with them about it. My final question to him was, “So what did they say?” He replied, “They said that I am a Soldier and if I can’t handle it, get out!”
As a leader myself, I apologized to this Soldier and informed him that some leaders are called leaders because of their position or title, not because of their leadership. I then annotated in the retention book that he was not going to extend his contract but instead, leave the military because of the disrespect from his leadership.
Must a Soldier be a Chaplain to get respected? Can a Soldier who informs his or her chain of command that the speaking of profanity is against their religion be provided the same respect that a chaplain receives? Should fellow Soldiers respect these Soldiers? To me, the answer is quite simple. We should.
I am one of these Soldiers. I am a non-paid minister at a local church. The Soldiers who are aware of this duty respect the fact I am a Soldier and a minister. I've expressed to others that I would like for them to be themselves while in my presence, as I would perceive unrealism if they would change their talk, speech, or attitude just because I was standing around in the vicinity. Some disagreed but others said okay and would use profanity as if I’m not around. It didn’t then and doesn’t bother me a bit. However, there might be Soldiers that are affected by vulgar and demeaning language and I believe this should be respected.
If smoking a cigarette around a non-smoker is a sign of disrespect, I believe using profanity around a non-profanity speaker falls within the same guidelines if the Soldier speaks up. Leaders must understand that profanity can be damning to a lot of people. The “F” word has been known to cause havoc, begin fights, and unfortunately result in someone being killed. To tell a Soldier to deal with the disrespect because you're a Soldier is unacceptable.
This is not a new Army. Respect began when the Army began.
Religion
Respect
Values
Command Post
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
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While I don't believe loads of profanity is professional, a little goes a long way. I think its going to happen and when it does we need to pull up our big boy/girl pants and discern the environment it just happened in. Also its the setting, who's there, etc. No I don't think tons of profanity is good, But we don't need to be knit picky whiners either.
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I agree with most of what you said, msgt.
I would only add a few things to the discussion, this isn't meant to take away but to actually add to what you put forth.
1. Youth today both within and outside the military have great difficulty respecting authority. The military is up the river on this one, because you can only down so hard on young minds before its up to the young person to weigh and consider what their real values and morals are. Which leads to number two...
2. When youth get older and become NCOs or Officers, they'll still take that youth-mindset with them. I think much of what you observed in your post is this. Today's 30ish, 40ish NCOs and Officers were youth that were recruit at some point, and took that lack of respect with them as they made rank. They can't respect subordinates without putting them down needlessly because when they were subordinates, they couldn't respect fellow soldiers or their superiors either. Those that survived the NCOers and boards learned to squeak by through political gaming, backstabbing, saying one thing and doing another, and doing what was necessary to lie about their daily productivity. I believe respect goes both ways, but a big way of showing respect to superiors (at least this is what I've come to believe) is being able to be candid but truthful with your boss. Military leaders definitely need subordinates that can are willing to be candid and honest, or how else is a leader to function with the needs of the Army first? To me, lying to a superior about basic things or adopting a check the box mentality to promote a zero-defect mentality, and avoiding hard subjects is sending your boss just as much disrespect as the boss yelling at you or humiliating you publicly. Saluting or getting at parade rest when authority figures are around is easy. Keeping your military bearing while being honest with the CSM or battalion Colonel is far harder for a lower enlisted soldier. That doesn't mean for the lower enlisted to hold forth or berate his peers, but being honest in communication is something that too many in today's Army just don't know how to do. For young guys who do not know what respect is, its easier to 'Yes sir or Yes ma'am' an officer with a salute, say whatever it is you think they want to hear, and leave the situation as soon as possible.
With that being said, I've never gotten a real straight answer for these things either. There was a time I was like a lot of lower enlisted guys, griping about why things are the way they are, until I went to Afghanistan. Then I realized it from how authority figures might see things: when they know they are getting canned behavior from subordinates, but then see these same subordinates goofing off, and their NCOs are not much better, despair sets in the mind real quick. It becomes easier to just yell and berate people as they walk by you.
I would only add a few things to the discussion, this isn't meant to take away but to actually add to what you put forth.
1. Youth today both within and outside the military have great difficulty respecting authority. The military is up the river on this one, because you can only down so hard on young minds before its up to the young person to weigh and consider what their real values and morals are. Which leads to number two...
2. When youth get older and become NCOs or Officers, they'll still take that youth-mindset with them. I think much of what you observed in your post is this. Today's 30ish, 40ish NCOs and Officers were youth that were recruit at some point, and took that lack of respect with them as they made rank. They can't respect subordinates without putting them down needlessly because when they were subordinates, they couldn't respect fellow soldiers or their superiors either. Those that survived the NCOers and boards learned to squeak by through political gaming, backstabbing, saying one thing and doing another, and doing what was necessary to lie about their daily productivity. I believe respect goes both ways, but a big way of showing respect to superiors (at least this is what I've come to believe) is being able to be candid but truthful with your boss. Military leaders definitely need subordinates that can are willing to be candid and honest, or how else is a leader to function with the needs of the Army first? To me, lying to a superior about basic things or adopting a check the box mentality to promote a zero-defect mentality, and avoiding hard subjects is sending your boss just as much disrespect as the boss yelling at you or humiliating you publicly. Saluting or getting at parade rest when authority figures are around is easy. Keeping your military bearing while being honest with the CSM or battalion Colonel is far harder for a lower enlisted soldier. That doesn't mean for the lower enlisted to hold forth or berate his peers, but being honest in communication is something that too many in today's Army just don't know how to do. For young guys who do not know what respect is, its easier to 'Yes sir or Yes ma'am' an officer with a salute, say whatever it is you think they want to hear, and leave the situation as soon as possible.
With that being said, I've never gotten a real straight answer for these things either. There was a time I was like a lot of lower enlisted guys, griping about why things are the way they are, until I went to Afghanistan. Then I realized it from how authority figures might see things: when they know they are getting canned behavior from subordinates, but then see these same subordinates goofing off, and their NCOs are not much better, despair sets in the mind real quick. It becomes easier to just yell and berate people as they walk by you.
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This was my style of leadership and what I tried to teach both my juniors and even seniors.
But there are two types of respect; respect for rank and respect for individual.
Respect for rank is/should a given without question. It shouldn't matter if you think that individual is the worst soldier, sailor, Marine, or airman you've ever met. It also shouldn't matter if they are senior or junior to you.
Respect for individual is something totally different. This something that is earned by actions, deeds, and words. As leaders, this is something that should be striven for.
I can tell you from personal experience that I had a better group of juniors that respected both my rank and me as a person. They went above and beyond my expectations. They were always there for me when I needed them the most.
I've seen what happens when there is no respect for person. These individuals tend to get the bare minimum out of their juniors.
And this isn't just a military thing; this will also follow you in civilian life. One only needs to replace the word "rank" for "position".
As far as profanity goes.... I used it, but I found that if I only used it when I was really pissed, my juniors knew that they REALLY screwed up and that I wasn't just blowing off steam.
But then, I served in a different military branch from you. I didn't have to worry about getting my juniors ready for the stresses of combat.
But there are two types of respect; respect for rank and respect for individual.
Respect for rank is/should a given without question. It shouldn't matter if you think that individual is the worst soldier, sailor, Marine, or airman you've ever met. It also shouldn't matter if they are senior or junior to you.
Respect for individual is something totally different. This something that is earned by actions, deeds, and words. As leaders, this is something that should be striven for.
I can tell you from personal experience that I had a better group of juniors that respected both my rank and me as a person. They went above and beyond my expectations. They were always there for me when I needed them the most.
I've seen what happens when there is no respect for person. These individuals tend to get the bare minimum out of their juniors.
And this isn't just a military thing; this will also follow you in civilian life. One only needs to replace the word "rank" for "position".
As far as profanity goes.... I used it, but I found that if I only used it when I was really pissed, my juniors knew that they REALLY screwed up and that I wasn't just blowing off steam.
But then, I served in a different military branch from you. I didn't have to worry about getting my juniors ready for the stresses of combat.
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MSG (Join to see)
PO1 John Meyer, watch this... I respect you because of your rank and because you are a human/individual. You did not have to earn it. Why is this? I do understand what you're trying to portray but respect should not be earned. It can be taken away. When most speak of respect, I believe theyre referring to trust. I cannot say that I trust you until you have EARNED the trust via actions, deeds words. etc., I thank you for your reply to the post and thank you for your service. I plan to reitre in three years with 29 years of service. I've seen just about everything but I RESPECT your response and we can agree to disagree on these small differences.
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I don't cuss at my soldiers or even refer to them in a profane way. However, I do curse around my fellow infantrymen. Usually referring to an inanimate object. For example, "Hey PFC Snuffy, grab a couple of ground guides and move our Bradley from the motor pool to f-ing maintenance bay. I'll meet you guys in bay 2."
If that makes me a bad leader, then there's a serious cultural issue that needs to be addressed, and perhaps I should start with myself.
If that makes me a bad leader, then there's a serious cultural issue that needs to be addressed, and perhaps I should start with myself.
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MSG (Join to see)
SSG Aaron Walker, cursing around your fellow infantryman doesn't make you a bad leader just as not cursing will make you a good leader. LDRSHIP defines the Army values and the third letter of the Army values is what this post is about. Question is If one of your infantryman tells you as his leader the following: "SSG Walker, I just found a religion and would appreciate if you don't use those nasty jokes while Im around." Do you as the leader tel the Soldier that he better get used to it? Do you tell him that he's an 11B and he needs to deal with it? Or do you tell him that I respect what you said Specialist and will do my best to repsect what you've found.?" This Soldier would have to understand that he could be the only one in the squad or platoon who doesn't like the type of language used and could appear at times to be being singled out. A Soldier could say, "Specialist, I am about to tell a joke I know you dont like." This would allow such Soldier to excuse himself from the area or allow certain Soldiers to remove themselves from an area thus showing RESPECT for the Specialist.
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SSG (Join to see)
I don't tell nasty jokes at work. Not only do i personally dislike them, the SHARP program is a pretty good deterrent as well. If a soldier came to me with a logical reason to ask me to change my behavior, I would accommodate him/her as best I could.
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If an individual chooses to abstain from using 'profanity' that is their choice. If I chose to use what they deem as 'profanity' as part of my regular vocabulary, that is my choice. Why must I conform to somebody else's beliefs/morals/ideals? I can understand certain situations to an extent, and there are some occasions where it may be unprofessional. However if my choice of language gets my point across faster and more efficiently then I am going to use it. Seconds wasted can sometimes cost lives. Again this not always the case, but do we not Train as we Fight?
Because I chose to use vocabulary that you deem vulgar, is it acceptable for me to deem your choice of smoking, or dipping the same way? I do not believe so. Those are personal choices that you as an individual make. Asking me to change my vocabulary is like asking a person to stop using words that are part of their hometown local culture.
Another argument of "Would you use that language to your mother/wife/POTUS or whatever is completely irrelevant. If the situation deemed necessary to get a point across then yes, I would use whatever words best described what I was trying to say.
I am all for respect in the military, and I believe that it is important. It is our responsibility as leaders to instill that respect in our soldiers. Some of those soldiers happen to be hard headed and need a good yelling at to get a point across. But there are many different kinds of soldiers and always a different approach to handle them.
Because I chose to use vocabulary that you deem vulgar, is it acceptable for me to deem your choice of smoking, or dipping the same way? I do not believe so. Those are personal choices that you as an individual make. Asking me to change my vocabulary is like asking a person to stop using words that are part of their hometown local culture.
Another argument of "Would you use that language to your mother/wife/POTUS or whatever is completely irrelevant. If the situation deemed necessary to get a point across then yes, I would use whatever words best described what I was trying to say.
I am all for respect in the military, and I believe that it is important. It is our responsibility as leaders to instill that respect in our soldiers. Some of those soldiers happen to be hard headed and need a good yelling at to get a point across. But there are many different kinds of soldiers and always a different approach to handle them.
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When I first joined the Navy, people worked together as a team. Stuff had to be done then you all worked together and stayed until it was completed. The Navy I believe has changed this as more of a competition against each other instead of working together. People now days are quick to throw people under the bus to make themselves look better. Just like if someone is slacking, transfer them departments instead of correcting the issue and do extra duty until that person understands the importance of what they did wrong. They want to put the work on someone else. I want to stay in because I love my job. What I don't love is the people that I work with due to not having respect for each other or the seniority of others above them.
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MSG (Join to see)
PO2 Rose Kearns, I hope at things improve in your surroundings. I applaud your efforts for wanting to remain because you love your job. There is an old wise saying that if you love your job, it really isn't work. I highly recommend that you continue to show respect to your fellow Navy servicemen and women and oftentimes it can rub off on those who lack it.
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PO2 (Join to see)
Yes I try to do my best. When I say I love my job I mean I love being able to take care of someone and make a difference. I believe in helping others out and working together as a team to complete the mission. I didn't mean I didn't like the people I work with. More that I don't like the people that I work with that don't show respect or are willing to do what they can to help others that are struggling.... like the people that are out for themselves. We should all work as a team and help each other out. I was once told by one of my HMCS's that you will have good leaders and bad leaders. It's what you take and learn from them that matter and help to make a change.
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PO3 Aaron Hassay
there must be away to get aroun idiots bad leadership that would could assault you physically mentally threaten your career or punish you anyway outside of the UCMJ protocols. It happened to me punishments all out of the UCMJ protocols. One being the biggest ass and mind kicking one incident e9 to me an e3 over correcting hygeine issues at sea -sea sick depressed hard hazardous labors and extreme watches exposure to extreme cold and heat. I am on SSDI now unable to keep a job hate the thought of ever working for anyone ever again. I gave up a long time ago. That same e9 actually the next day rubbed salt in the wound and because I was young and naive he had me search around the ship for a non-existent thing, and people laughed at me, and I reported back to him what I could not find and when him and the others around him I worked with heard this fake thing I was looking for I just about fucking caved in somehow. I am a street fighter now and underground one. I have been diagnosed with PTSD some 16 years after hiding the story and finally talking about that. 2005 homeless and broke and frantic cutting myself in a suicide hospital where not once I mentioned that I had my ass assaulted in the military and I did not even mention the fact i was in the military at all. that is an outcome of such events .
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Being on both sides of the fence i understand both sides! It is almost like being a parent sometimes you just get so frustrated that you yell and curse but as a leader you have a core job and that is to train. After i have had a situation that i may or may not have cursed or raised my voice i call that young soldier into my office and we talk about it and i start it off with an apology if it is needed but the bottom line is i am there to train that soldier not just in basic soldiering or basic MOS functions but also how to be a good and effective leader. So i guess what i am saying is sometimes it is needed but you need to treat them like an adult they will respond and if they do not then there is always a pen and a good counseling statement.
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If you're so thin skinned as to be offended by this, then you don't belong in life. Life is tough. The military is tough. Do you know what a rain coat is? It protects you from the rain and keeps you dry. So just put on your physical rain coat and drive on. I don't see the use to stand and swear the air blue, but words come out and sh!t happens. Life is life. Drive on.
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With all due respect MSG, I would like to point out that it is often not just a respect issue. In my personal opinion, and in personal experience, the harder, and (what can be percieved as) harsher you are with your soldiers, IN GENERAL, the more effective response you will get. If you take a cherry private fresh out of IET and tell him "Hey, Private, I want you to bound up that hill with your fire team and take out that bunker." sure, he'll do it, but if you raise your voice and command "Get your a** up that hill and take out that f****** bunker NOW." he will do it with more gusto and haste. No because he fears you, not because he wants to get away from you, but because he now understands that you are in charge and mean business. Absolutely, soldiers, as grown adults, and the bravest of 1% in America, have earned a level of respect. This is true. However, all good things in small doses, because it can easily turn into coddling the soldier and eventually undermining the purpose of the rank structure.
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MSG (Join to see)
PFC Italino Pietrantonio, I have no issues with profanity. You are trying to correlate taking a hill with everyday duties in a Garrison environment. I was a drill instructor and had to raise my voice to ensure that Soldiers (not just privates) moved out strongly. Think wartime vs. peacetime environments. Leaders with the mindset that they must curse a private or other Soldier out because they have the rank to do so is not professional at all. These types of leaders will exit the military prior to retiring and be in for a rude awakening and find out quickly that there is a level of professionlism both in the military and in the civilian sector. I know there are those who will disagree with me. I've led several Soldiers who were E-1s and now they are E-7s and E-8s and some are retired who have thanked me for my leadership. Not all of them thanked me because I had to take some action on a few. Those who did thank me have informed me that they have received thanks from their Soldiers. R-E-S-P-E-C-T.
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SPC (Join to see)
I do see your point MSG, and yes, I do correlate everyday duties with training excersizes, simply because as a 11B, training IS my daily duty in one capacity or another. I will be the first to admit I have a foul mouth, and I am very hard, tough and loud on not only the trainees that get put under me, but on the other soldiers I work with. Granted, you do have a valid point as it pertains to wartime vs peacetime standings. I was brought up in a wartime army. It is all I know, and I am quickly learning the difference. However, as someone who has been through the IET and the Line environments and is now cadre in a BCT unit, I must say that when you take the edge and that hard, harsh and (could be misinterpreted as) cruel mannerisms from the cadre, then the soldiers coming out are not as hard, thick-skinned, or resilient to the ways of the world. Is it necessarily PROFESSIONAL? Probably not. Is it (in my own opinion) necessary to continue creating efficient soldiers who will serve and possibly have to violently defend this country? Absolutely. But I digress. There is a time and place, and I think the Army is the place for the yelling, the soul-crushing discipline and the unwavering hard-heartedness that has always held up to provide this country with the leanest, meanest, fastest and baddest soldiers in the world.
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I think there is a very fine line between respect and discipline. In my opinion the fact is that (at least in the Army) you have two functions. Those who are going to engage the enemies of the United States in combat and those who support that function. I was a combat medic who was with infantry my entire career. I have seen both sides. I have seen the NCO's that abuse their power and I myself have always tried to be very strict and "hard" on my soldiers. I did this because I had seen first hand what combat was like and I knew what they would soon be going through. Did I curse? Hell yes I did. Did I smoke them? Hell yes I did. But each time I would ensure that they knew what the value of the training was. I think it goes beyond just whether or not you curse or smoke them. My soldiers knew that I was going to be with them in everything we did... good... bad... ugly.... and stupid. They knew by my actions that if I wasn't there it was cause I was doing something else that took priority. They knew that not because I told them, they could see it in my actions. Now, I will say this. I had a fellow NCO say that he would never use a derogatory word as a replacement to that soldiers name. I believe in that. I respected them for serving their country and as fellow men... brothers... I would curse sometimes because I was passionate or concerned about them learning a lesson but I would not call them something demeaning. I promise you that my soldiers never felt that I disrespected them and I would curse up a storm.
Bottom line, it comes down to the motivation of the leader. If the leader is a dirtbag then it's going to show in the way he talks and deals with his subordinates. If the leader has their best interest and the missions at heart that will be reflected also.
Just my opinion.
Bottom line, it comes down to the motivation of the leader. If the leader is a dirtbag then it's going to show in the way he talks and deals with his subordinates. If the leader has their best interest and the missions at heart that will be reflected also.
Just my opinion.
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MSG (Join to see)
SSG Vince Sharp, I have no problem with your post. When I began the post, it was based on the fact that some leaders abuse their power and fail to respect their Soldiers. Profanity usage isn't the issue. It reminds me of correcting a child for wrongdoing. Punishing a child isn't an issue. It's the abuse of a child while correcting wrongdoing.
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