Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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For those who "missed" serving due to legally following the rules, so be it; their loss. I also agree with Major John Bell that for those who ran, went to Canada or other places and hid, they should owe a price, for what they did was illegal. On the moral side, they put themselves above this great country and have no claim to any of its benefits. Any who have returned and can be identified should be located and forced to still serve in some way, even if it's community service time like some lawbreakers have to do, and such service would be rendered at no cost to the taxpayer; there could also be an option to return to the country they ran to and live there for the rest of their lives with a "no return to the USA" policy imposed.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your comments. If I understand your statement, it seems as if people should be forced into servitude, or imprisoned for fleeing servitude. Doesn't sound much like the America we should aspire to, nor like the one I see described by our Constitution, or of the men by whom it was framed.
Respectful regards
Respectful regards
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MSgt James "Buck" Buchanan
So, I read your reply as saying military service is an involuntary servitude. For some, that is possibly the case. Most of us, even those who faced the draft, saw serving as an obligation (perhaps privilege) to help protect what this country has and stands for. So, perhaps in more direct answer to your comment, lawbreakers must pay a price, and if that includes no benefits from this country, then so be it. They made a conscious choice to back out of their obligation (and even at that not everybody got drafted or served, but they took their chances on what would happen) and must face a consequence. You might compare it to someone not paying their taxes, getting caught and having to pay for that action/decision. Both are obligations and, at one time, both were required.
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I graduated from high school in 1964. I went to college for a semester, but I didn't do really well because I wasn't ready for college. One of the courses I took was ROTC. I left college in January 1965. I remember on ROTC instructor telling my I should stay in school until the US figured out what to do about Vietnam. He said we were probably going to get involved, it was going to be a 'mess'.
I checked out the other services. The navy was on a quota system and so was the air force. I didn't check out the marines because I had heard that they would 'send you back home' if they felt you wouldn't be a good marine. Who would want that to happen ?I enlisted in the army for four years. I was selected for the Army Security Agency. The recruiter said it required a top secret security clearance, and in the event I couldn't qualify for the clearance the four year enlistment would still be in effect, but the army would train me for anything they felt would best serve the army. It could be infantry or anything. You don't find out whether you were accepted until you graduated from basic training (Ft. Jackson). When you received your 'package' you would find out. I was accepted and assigned to Ft. Gordon to their signal school.
In short, in those days, the draft was in effect. Many of us had fathers who had served in WWII and serving was what guys did. It was expected. Many of us were mesmerized by JFK who said' Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for country'. My first tour was in Japan for two years, stateside for three months, Vietnam for a year. I volunteered for 'Nam'. I would do it again, even knowing the outcome. I learned a lot from my four years. I enlisted because I knew I needed to learn 'structure'. As far as the folks who 'dodged' the draft; that is something they have to live with. I suppose some are still wondering if they could have 'measured up'. I don't hold any animosity towards these guys.
I checked out the other services. The navy was on a quota system and so was the air force. I didn't check out the marines because I had heard that they would 'send you back home' if they felt you wouldn't be a good marine. Who would want that to happen ?I enlisted in the army for four years. I was selected for the Army Security Agency. The recruiter said it required a top secret security clearance, and in the event I couldn't qualify for the clearance the four year enlistment would still be in effect, but the army would train me for anything they felt would best serve the army. It could be infantry or anything. You don't find out whether you were accepted until you graduated from basic training (Ft. Jackson). When you received your 'package' you would find out. I was accepted and assigned to Ft. Gordon to their signal school.
In short, in those days, the draft was in effect. Many of us had fathers who had served in WWII and serving was what guys did. It was expected. Many of us were mesmerized by JFK who said' Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for country'. My first tour was in Japan for two years, stateside for three months, Vietnam for a year. I volunteered for 'Nam'. I would do it again, even knowing the outcome. I learned a lot from my four years. I enlisted because I knew I needed to learn 'structure'. As far as the folks who 'dodged' the draft; that is something they have to live with. I suppose some are still wondering if they could have 'measured up'. I don't hold any animosity towards these guys.
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When we had a Draft it was due to our Elected officials deeming it necessary for the good of the Nation. Right or Wrong. We have done away with it....I served with draftees when I first enlisted in 1974 and remember when they were told they had a deadline for choosing to remain as RA Soldiers or get out.....not an easy choice for some, but we went to "VOLAR", Volunteer Army. I'm assuming the days of its necessity were over. We'll see. History has a habit of coming back on us uninvited when we think we have it all "figured out".
My thoughts are that for those who sought or received a deferment and remained in the US to pursue their endeavors...that was what the system allowed so no harm no foul....live it it. If you left the Country to avoid Service but sought to return because it makes you or others who want to end the controversy of the times you should be told to remain where you are and live with your choice. You were called, you left, you don't deserve to come back...regardless of what is thought of the Conflict today.
Just an opinion.
As to Politicians and their Service....or lack of it....it is just a small part of who they are what they offer. I would never vote for someone, regardless of affiliation, who left the Country to avoid serving and came back later. Otherwise...what are your policies and what do you offer? That determines my vote.
My thoughts are that for those who sought or received a deferment and remained in the US to pursue their endeavors...that was what the system allowed so no harm no foul....live it it. If you left the Country to avoid Service but sought to return because it makes you or others who want to end the controversy of the times you should be told to remain where you are and live with your choice. You were called, you left, you don't deserve to come back...regardless of what is thought of the Conflict today.
Just an opinion.
As to Politicians and their Service....or lack of it....it is just a small part of who they are what they offer. I would never vote for someone, regardless of affiliation, who left the Country to avoid serving and came back later. Otherwise...what are your policies and what do you offer? That determines my vote.
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I like the sound and the meaning of the words"Rules are the rules" and the "spirit of the implementation" thereof " speaks volumes. One Sunday morning in Sunday school, a gentleman sitting behind me was saying that he wished he had served. He was of the age(65) that could have easily served in Viet Nam. As we age we can and do often reflect on statement "Do your Duty no more no less" said by RE Lee. The man in question missed his chance to serve his country and now has a void to fill. The silent presence of the tri-folded US flag at a veteran's funeral will sear in the hearts and minds of all present that yes, military service does count Bill Clinton( Slick was drafted and had a report date and the definition of "Failure to repair" were met). When rules are followed and service is legally avoided, the lines become blurred in honor and duty. I close with the thought that if one lives to a mature age, you will have to ask yourself did you do your duty when called?
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PVT Raymond Lopez
Odd I don't remember Vietnam being a standing room only club! I remember never charged me to go there in fact they paid me.
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I could tell you something about the draft, but my information is a little dated. You all may know about it already since I don't think any of it was classified. It was important 50 years ago, but now, like then, I think people are worried for nothing.
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I’m not going to be hateful towards any US citizen that avoided “dodged” the draft and service. However ,that said, I will swiftly reply to any one that chooses to be hateful towards myself or my Ranger Brothers for our service or anyone that served . Certainly there’s freedom of speech , I will and do exercise my equal freedom of replying to their freedom of speech . Out here ...RLTW
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As one who "dodged the draft"by enlisting during the Vietnam War, I'd like to thank you for your service. Now as to being angry, irrate or just upset with those who dodged the draft, let me put my two cents in.
Many young men dodged the draft during that time for one reason or another. But for them to run for the border to Canada and protest from there, is unforgiveable, when so many more young men were drafted or volunteered to serve in the military. I chosed to volunteer to serve to repay for the free education I got growing in NYC, and to follow in my brother's and father's foot steps. My father served in WW2, my brother during the Vietnam war and after. He didn't go to Vietnam but to Korea (which technically was still at war). Those men whose families that had "big bucks", got deferments for college, medical and so on. Those with out "big bucks" chose to leave the USA, change their names, or hide out from the authorities. Bill Clinton chose not to serve, President Trump got a deferment, true. But boxer Mohammed Ali chose not to serve because he felt it was wrong to go to war. Mr. Ali instead chose to resist and went to prison for resisting. I can agree with Mr. Ali and admire him for standing up for his beliefs. Mr. Trump and Mr. Clinton cases, I take different views on. As a POTUS, you are the Commander in Chief of your country's military. You must ensure that those serving, volunteers and drafted, are properly cared for, housed, paid and equipped to defend this country. Many a POTUS who has never served in the military has let those four items above, fall and are reduced. But it is also the duty of Congress to approve advancements for those who serve. But draft dodgers who left the US deserve nothing. Voting, housing, social security or citizenship. But there are those who were against killing in any way, shape or form, who stayed in the US and did other volunteer work. Some even went into the military to become medics or clecks. Draft dodgers who didn't serve, deserve no say in matters of the military, unless they support those who did go through the draft or volunteered. I have a few friends, who didn't serve in the military. They still served in other ways. One was a civil engineer for the NAVY. Another worked in Civil Engineers as a civilian construction worker. Former POTUS Clinton chose to become a member of USAID I believe. Bush 43 served in the Air Force reserve. So you see, many of our presidents have chosen to serve or did not. How they support their troops, sailors and so forth is another thing. Wether in war or peace time, the POTUS must fully support the Americans in the military. My feelings. Any POTUS, Congressman/woman or politican who runs for high office, best take great care of the US military man, woman and family, because they chose to serve. Draft dodgers must either take their medicine or keep out of politics. Sorry for going off subject at some points.
Many young men dodged the draft during that time for one reason or another. But for them to run for the border to Canada and protest from there, is unforgiveable, when so many more young men were drafted or volunteered to serve in the military. I chosed to volunteer to serve to repay for the free education I got growing in NYC, and to follow in my brother's and father's foot steps. My father served in WW2, my brother during the Vietnam war and after. He didn't go to Vietnam but to Korea (which technically was still at war). Those men whose families that had "big bucks", got deferments for college, medical and so on. Those with out "big bucks" chose to leave the USA, change their names, or hide out from the authorities. Bill Clinton chose not to serve, President Trump got a deferment, true. But boxer Mohammed Ali chose not to serve because he felt it was wrong to go to war. Mr. Ali instead chose to resist and went to prison for resisting. I can agree with Mr. Ali and admire him for standing up for his beliefs. Mr. Trump and Mr. Clinton cases, I take different views on. As a POTUS, you are the Commander in Chief of your country's military. You must ensure that those serving, volunteers and drafted, are properly cared for, housed, paid and equipped to defend this country. Many a POTUS who has never served in the military has let those four items above, fall and are reduced. But it is also the duty of Congress to approve advancements for those who serve. But draft dodgers who left the US deserve nothing. Voting, housing, social security or citizenship. But there are those who were against killing in any way, shape or form, who stayed in the US and did other volunteer work. Some even went into the military to become medics or clecks. Draft dodgers who didn't serve, deserve no say in matters of the military, unless they support those who did go through the draft or volunteered. I have a few friends, who didn't serve in the military. They still served in other ways. One was a civil engineer for the NAVY. Another worked in Civil Engineers as a civilian construction worker. Former POTUS Clinton chose to become a member of USAID I believe. Bush 43 served in the Air Force reserve. So you see, many of our presidents have chosen to serve or did not. How they support their troops, sailors and so forth is another thing. Wether in war or peace time, the POTUS must fully support the Americans in the military. My feelings. Any POTUS, Congressman/woman or politican who runs for high office, best take great care of the US military man, woman and family, because they chose to serve. Draft dodgers must either take their medicine or keep out of politics. Sorry for going off subject at some points.
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SSG Gerhard S.
For the record, unless you have some positive evidence, I couldn't find anything that shows Bill Clinton served in any capacity during the Vietnam War... USAID, or otherwise. Not that it matters to me. I don't have to equivocate or make excuses for anybody. I stand against Slavery, and Servitude in ALL it's forms... Yes, even when it's the government perpetrating the Servitude. If you feel the need to make excuses for some while denigrating others, one might suspect you're acting politically, instead of on principle. Regards.
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GySgt William Hardy
I have a good buddy who was advised by his Air Force father, who was in Vietnam at the time, not to join up. He was not rich, but did get a college deferment for 4 years. His number didn't come up and thus he was never drafted. He was the oldest in a family of 5 children being raised on Sgt's pay. To use the term "rich" isn't exactly fair. None of this brothers went into the military. The next brother also got college deferments and the war was over by the time he was ready. The third brother started with a deferment. You didn't have to be rich to "dodge" the draft. Other an that, I agree with you.
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SSgt Daniel d'Errico
What is also a bitter pill about those who didn't serve, was that many of them became members of congress, state senators, governors and so on. Bill Clinton went overseas to Oxford in England. Poor old country boy got a deferment that I believe was bullshit.
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PO2 Rev. Frederick C. Mullis, AFI, CFM
I never had any problems with deferments Medical or School. Many of those in School took ROTC or enlisted afterwards. The ones I had a problem with were the COWARDS that ran to CANADA. They should never be allowed back in the US. Just my opinion.
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