Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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Educational deferments were necessary in order to insure an educated populous... All military academies appointees were deferred until they finished school, no one knew how long the war would last. President Trump went on to use his education to develop corporations that employed hundreds of thousands of people. Each job he created provided momentary support to the US Military through the taxes that generated. Money that would not have went to the military had he not received that education. Would America have been served better by having someone in a foxhole in Vietnam not able to function due to a medical condition?
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MSgt J D McKee
Medical, no. But as open as that is to subjective determination and therefore to corruption, it would take care to do that one right. The medically unfit could push papers in the US, or something, anything, that fucks up their life almost as much as those who actually get jerked out of high school and sent into the jungle to shoot people they never met. President Trump, as much as I like him, could have started later with his life just like the poor people and still done as much. He had a rich daddy, just like George Bush Jr who I believe spent his Vietnam service in the Alabama National guard flying non-missions out of Birmingham, not Da Nang. If we ever have a draft again, it should include the children of privilege right along with everyone else. By children of privilege I mean anyone who can afford college.
My opinion has swung 180 since I grew up. That would be somewhere in my late 40's I think. Or maybe after I had a child in my early 30's. Also, I think it is really, really unfair in todays society so concerned with gender equality to not draft women.
My opinion has swung 180 since I grew up. That would be somewhere in my late 40's I think. Or maybe after I had a child in my early 30's. Also, I think it is really, really unfair in todays society so concerned with gender equality to not draft women.
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SFC Quinn Chastant
Captain Walters, respectfully Sir, in regards to the Military Academy Appointees who attend the Academies are and were expected to serve upon the time of their graduation. They weren't and aren't deferred from the draft (or currently the need to register) in as they are considered to be in a military service at the time with a title of Cadet. Upon Completion of the School they then are commissioned. (or return to their home country for commissioning to that military service). Academy Appointees who fail to complete the education have several other options open in regards to service commitments based upon the nature of their release.
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I have no problem with the people that got deferments, but I draw the line when a person can't get a deferment and leaves the country. They should not be allowed back into the country ever. It disrespects the people that stayed and were drafted.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Weren't the rights of those people who were drafted disrespected by their own government?
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I can accept education and medical deferments. If you leave the country to evade service I would be less willing to grant you forgiveness.
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in order to be a leader of men, first you must be a man with a heart, and than have a mind.
when you are born, the heart starts your life, when the heart dies no more life.
there are many positions in the military that are non combative that need to be filed by someone. if we trained and work together we understand each other now from a different perspective. if i have never walk a mile in another man's shoes i might never understand or care about what he feels. one thing i did in combat that the books said i did not have to do as a leader, i let my men know by doing, there was nothing i would tell them to do, that i wouldn't do myself. A leader is one who knows the way, goes the way, and shows the way.
when you are born, the heart starts your life, when the heart dies no more life.
there are many positions in the military that are non combative that need to be filed by someone. if we trained and work together we understand each other now from a different perspective. if i have never walk a mile in another man's shoes i might never understand or care about what he feels. one thing i did in combat that the books said i did not have to do as a leader, i let my men know by doing, there was nothing i would tell them to do, that i wouldn't do myself. A leader is one who knows the way, goes the way, and shows the way.
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The military then and now are so different. The blasé attitudes that command held for soldiers lives makes me sick and if that was the choice people faced I'm not sure I can condemn a man for that. My family went (I'm third generation military) My father and mother joined voluntarily, my uncle was drafted, he came home and was spit on, divorced and abused. And knowing the history of the war, and the risks taken with the soldiers lives and blatant disregard by politicians and generals alike...I'm just not sure as person who has only lived in a voluntary force if I can fault them.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for sharing your memories, and experiences, and for your thoughtful comments regarding this issue.
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Very good points SSG. I must admit that you have given me a new perspective that makes a lot of sense. The main reason I have been for the draft is to provide the swamp people pause when they know their sons and daughters may have to fight in the next war they commit us to. Its a very valid reason for the draft but it's also a little naive to thing they won't be able to get their children a deferment.
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Cpl David Bientz
LT Smith, I support a draft mainly because the military teaches everyone that serves the things that are so important in life and are seldom taught at home and in the schools today. In the military you are inculcated with a sense of Honor, Integrity, Discipline, Can/Will Do Attitude, Duty, Purpose, Espirit de Corps, and that there are things more important than ones self. That "Can Do" Attitude can make our nations cities far greater for it.
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LT Thomas Smith
You are correct Cpl. This is why many businesses are seldom disappointed when they hire a person who has served. We make great employees for all those reasons. It is sad that you have to offer your life in order to learn these great personal attributes. They should be part of life-long teaching taught to us on an ongoing basis by our schools, our pastors and our parents.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Perhaps some who didn't make it would still be alive? Perhaps our politicians would be forced to more carefully consider our foreign interventions, and the ramifications of not having enough volunteers to engage in actions that lack popularity among our citizens?
I can find no obligation, nor any power given the Federal government to compel military service in our Constitution. The greatest obligation one had to this country, is to be a productive member of it, to whatever degree one is able. Respectful regards
I can find no obligation, nor any power given the Federal government to compel military service in our Constitution. The greatest obligation one had to this country, is to be a productive member of it, to whatever degree one is able. Respectful regards
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SFC David Dean
Commander in Chief is granted the power. First of all you need to start from the objective point that our country is a Constitutional Republic and not a Democracy. Unless and until that is the foundation one begins such discussions from, one cannot begin to fully explain or define much of what today is being disputed. As for your statement about not finding the military obligation delineated within the Constitution; there is a myriad of things not specifically noted within this document. Yet, we have significant statements and findings that exist in our country. At one time women and blacks could not vote; abortion, prohibition, etc. So, the point you attempt to make relevant to the draft is not made. We have going back to the Revolutionary War a draft existing and by mere extrapolation that sets the legal precident for the Congress and the President to utilize the draft.
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Realistically speaking- pure logic here, no politics or emotional baggage or anything else- if they're willing to go to the lengths needed to properly dodge the draft? Chances are pretty freaking high they'd be worthless in combat. Now this isn't ALWAYS true- sometimes you get perfectly serviceable soldiers, even heroes like that one guy from WW1. Sometimes you get Maxwell Klingers.
But the majority of the time, you get someone who will ultimately be useless. For my part, I'd say useless persons should not be IN the military.
You may now add crude jokes regarding the brass and ranking enlisted personnel at your leisure.
But the majority of the time, you get someone who will ultimately be useless. For my part, I'd say useless persons should not be IN the military.
You may now add crude jokes regarding the brass and ranking enlisted personnel at your leisure.
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This opinion is definitely understandable. I was actually talking to my son about this very issue. And, I asked him how he would feel if his daughters were drafted or even chose to join.
He said he would feel uneasy but if it was "what they wanted" he would support them.
I have often thought that people who can choose (or as you say found a legal rule) were doing what they were allowed to by the system.
I do not agree with those who went to Canada or, (anything that wasn't within the system).
It is sad that those who were privileged were able to avoid what most people could not. But that opinion goes with everything that someone who is privileged can obtain things that many of us can't. Like better houses, cars, education, legal assistance, and on and on. But as the article suggests none of this is illegal. It's just that many of us are not privileged and have to abide with life as we can.
He said he would feel uneasy but if it was "what they wanted" he would support them.
I have often thought that people who can choose (or as you say found a legal rule) were doing what they were allowed to by the system.
I do not agree with those who went to Canada or, (anything that wasn't within the system).
It is sad that those who were privileged were able to avoid what most people could not. But that opinion goes with everything that someone who is privileged can obtain things that many of us can't. Like better houses, cars, education, legal assistance, and on and on. But as the article suggests none of this is illegal. It's just that many of us are not privileged and have to abide with life as we can.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Here's a question for you regarding those who fled to Canada to avoid servitude in Vietnam. You stated you were against that. I ask this sincerely, and not as a criticism...
Would you also be against those who fled slavery in the South escaping to Canada? The "system" under the fugitive slave act required those escapees to be returned to the South, and made it illegal for any to help them. The underground railroad also operated "outside the system" after all.
Would you also be against those who fled slavery in the South escaping to Canada? The "system" under the fugitive slave act required those escapees to be returned to the South, and made it illegal for any to help them. The underground railroad also operated "outside the system" after all.
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SMSgt William Gardner
SSG,
The answer is "yes" I would be in favor of slaves trying to flee to Canada. And also in favor of anyone trying to help them. I have never agreed with slavery. Comparing war and slavery are definitely different.
The answer is "yes" I would be in favor of slaves trying to flee to Canada. And also in favor of anyone trying to help them. I have never agreed with slavery. Comparing war and slavery are definitely different.
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