Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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Food for thought for sure. I have to Nam tours 67-68, 72. Going back for my second tour was very hard on my family and if I didn’t have so much of my life invested in my career I think I would have taken my separation from the Army.
At that time I was more upset at the protesters and dodgers than anyone.
But as time goes by my total discuss is for our leaders especially LBJ, Bob MacNamar(?), WCW and that gang than anybody else.
I’ve come up with the five things wrong with the RVN war; WRONG war, reason, place, time and leadership.
At that time I was more upset at the protesters and dodgers than anyone.
But as time goes by my total discuss is for our leaders especially LBJ, Bob MacNamar(?), WCW and that gang than anybody else.
I’ve come up with the five things wrong with the RVN war; WRONG war, reason, place, time and leadership.
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I am not trying to dodge the question, but seeing as how I wasn’t alive during Vietnam or serving during a time where there was an active draft I don’t think I can hold a grudge for anyone’s decisions made during that time. I am proud to have volunteered to serve and wouldn’t want to serve next to anyone who hadn’t volunteered. Everyone I served with all chose to be infantry or serve in combat roles and knew what we were getting into and I believe we were more effective and efficient because it was our choice. I wouldn’t want to serve next to someone who didn’t want to be there or have my back.
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Since Gen. George Washington, many POTUS' have served in the military and many have not. But when it comes down to it, "what's good for the goose is good for the gander". I faced the draft coming out of high school in 1971. Rather than getting drafted, I became a draft dodger. I enlisted 2 months after high school graduation. So did many of my classmates. Now with the all volunteer military, I feel a lot more young people are joining up to get job training, benefits and earn money. But recruiters are falling short on enlisting new troops because of universities closing their doors to recruiters. Playing the liberal cards of being anti military, anti war and pro peace.
President Trump ask for and got 3 deferments and 1 medical. Bill Clinton got a deferment for going to Oxford university. Barack Obame never got a deferment for any thing. George H. Bush joined the Air National Guard, but no one remembers that George H W Bush was in the CIA at that time before he became govenor of Texas. Now if a another draft is implemented, there is no going to Mexico or Canada any more. I believe several other countries in Europe, South America and Asia would be happy to turn away draft dodgers. True the military isn't for everyone, but so is the Peace Corps. You have to sign the Selective Service Act inorder to vote or get a federal job. Unless that has been changed. Ssgt G.Seidel uses the definition of draft as "Salvery" and "Servitude". There hasn't been slavery in this country sin e 1865. Servitude is either enfor ed upon some one or voluntary, and you get paid for your serving this country. This debate will go on by many of us who served in the military. The draft dodgers, who are now in their 80s and 90s, need not ring in.
President Trump ask for and got 3 deferments and 1 medical. Bill Clinton got a deferment for going to Oxford university. Barack Obame never got a deferment for any thing. George H. Bush joined the Air National Guard, but no one remembers that George H W Bush was in the CIA at that time before he became govenor of Texas. Now if a another draft is implemented, there is no going to Mexico or Canada any more. I believe several other countries in Europe, South America and Asia would be happy to turn away draft dodgers. True the military isn't for everyone, but so is the Peace Corps. You have to sign the Selective Service Act inorder to vote or get a federal job. Unless that has been changed. Ssgt G.Seidel uses the definition of draft as "Salvery" and "Servitude". There hasn't been slavery in this country sin e 1865. Servitude is either enfor ed upon some one or voluntary, and you get paid for your serving this country. This debate will go on by many of us who served in the military. The draft dodgers, who are now in their 80s and 90s, need not ring in.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for taking the time to read the post, and to respond. For the record, I didn't write those definitions (of slavery, or servitude) They came right out of Merriam Webster's dictionary. ( I always use this dictionary for consistency's sake, I know there are others who shop around for the definition they want).
Regardless, the draft DOES fit into both of those definitions. Perhaps into the slavery one more loosely, and into the servitude one more snugly. What is the draft, if not forced? By definition, it's not voluntary, it's done at the point of a gun. Show up, or men with guns will come and take away your freedom anyway. Then to suggest that paying a sub-standard wage makes it somehow voluntary, is avoiding the issue of the gun that was pointed at you in the first place. The choice between being forced to "serve" (forced into servitude) against one's will, or of being forced into jail for not doing so, is really, not a choice at all. Both are accomplished with the muzzle of a gun pointed in one's direction, and a lack of free choice.
Lastly, if the government wishes to increase the number of volunteers, they should do what everyone else does when they need employees. They should offer a clear concise mission, and a commensurate wage, and benefit package that will entice people to join freely.
Again, thank you for your comments, and for sharing your personal experiences.
Respectful Regards.
Regardless, the draft DOES fit into both of those definitions. Perhaps into the slavery one more loosely, and into the servitude one more snugly. What is the draft, if not forced? By definition, it's not voluntary, it's done at the point of a gun. Show up, or men with guns will come and take away your freedom anyway. Then to suggest that paying a sub-standard wage makes it somehow voluntary, is avoiding the issue of the gun that was pointed at you in the first place. The choice between being forced to "serve" (forced into servitude) against one's will, or of being forced into jail for not doing so, is really, not a choice at all. Both are accomplished with the muzzle of a gun pointed in one's direction, and a lack of free choice.
Lastly, if the government wishes to increase the number of volunteers, they should do what everyone else does when they need employees. They should offer a clear concise mission, and a commensurate wage, and benefit package that will entice people to join freely.
Again, thank you for your comments, and for sharing your personal experiences.
Respectful Regards.
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SPC Rostyslaw Caryk
Very sorry to have to correct you, but facts are facts. President Obama, of course, faced no military draft. Nor did Bill Clinton, George W. Bush (who served in the Reserves with some missing time it seems). Trumps "medical" condition for deferment does not cannot be verified. Bone spurs would have been quite painful, even for walking. I have never seen that as ever a problem for him.
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SPC John Tacetta
SSG Gerhard S. - Meriam Webster - phah! Real men use the Oxford English Dictionary!
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No, I will not waste my time on why they elected to serve or not. At the end of the day, they have to live with their decision
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I have nothing but respect for those who went when called. The treatment of our Nam Vets is one of the most shameful periods in American history. I also respect the protesters for taking a stand. I have zero respect for those who ran or bought their way out and now talk about the glory of war!
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We all make life choices. Some good and some not so good. Because of that - at this stage of my life I hold no ill will toward anyone who received a deferment or someone who dodged the draft. As part of the discussion maybe we should differentiate between a "draft dodger", and someone receiving a deferment. Heck, I am willing to bet young men today do not know the difference nor care.
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I guess my question to you would be, does an individual have a duty to the nation he/she holds citizenship in to serve in the military “during a time of national emergency”? Okay, you can require someone to enter military service. The state can assign penalties if you refuse service when drafted but, are you really serving your nation if you don’t hold a philosophical view that as a citizen you do have a duty to serve your nation in the military when a draft is necessary.
Of course, if you disagree with the government of the nation you hold citizenship in, you can always apply for citizenship in a country you feel comfortable being a citizen in. Nobody that lives in the United States is under any requirement to retain citizenship in the nation and many, many people choose to become expats. That’s their right. The United States was created using western political philosophy as its foundation. That may not appeal to you. We ve seen that a few people actually prefer to join terrorist organizations instead of retaining their U.S. citizenship (as did people during WWII. (Do you remember the scene in Bad of Brothers where members of the 101st were talking with German POWs and found one of them was born and raised in Oregon?). So, this discussion spans a lot of time.
There are a lot of steps in between the two positions. They all need to be discussed in a courteous environment where each person is allowed to hold their own views while exploring other views.
Of course, if you disagree with the government of the nation you hold citizenship in, you can always apply for citizenship in a country you feel comfortable being a citizen in. Nobody that lives in the United States is under any requirement to retain citizenship in the nation and many, many people choose to become expats. That’s their right. The United States was created using western political philosophy as its foundation. That may not appeal to you. We ve seen that a few people actually prefer to join terrorist organizations instead of retaining their U.S. citizenship (as did people during WWII. (Do you remember the scene in Bad of Brothers where members of the 101st were talking with German POWs and found one of them was born and raised in Oregon?). So, this discussion spans a lot of time.
There are a lot of steps in between the two positions. They all need to be discussed in a courteous environment where each person is allowed to hold their own views while exploring other views.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments, and questions.
First, to answer your initial question. There is nothing, either in this country's founding, nor in it's Constitution that demands, as a duty that a person serve in the military involuntarily. I see you qualified your statement with the words "during a national emergency" Are you aware that President's declared "national emergencies" scores of times since the late 1970's, usually to seize, or freeze money of foreign countries, or entities? Could any, or all of these "national emergencies" require one to exercise that duty to serve?
The only thing a person owes THIS country, is to be a productive member of it, to the extent of their ability, and to therefore, not be a burden upon it. As I stated in the original post: If the Federal government wants to get people to serve in the armed forces, either in peacetime, or for their declared emergency, they should be able to justify said emergency, in such a way as to entice people to volunteer for service.
This could include things like:
1. A Just Cause that people are willing to enlist for.
2. Commensurate pay and benefits that would encourage people to volunteer.
3. I'll reiterate, one suspects there will be no shortage of volunteers if the US is ever invaded.
Is it really your position that we can't be a free country unless we give our government the power to force service upon it's citizens? Historically, conscription is how governments commit treasure and blood, to often terrible causes, and does so on the cheap.
Lastly, Being in disagreement with the decisions of politicians on what is an emergency, and what is not, does NOT mean one is in disagreement with the fundamental principles of civil, and economic Liberty, which is the foundation of the United States.
By the way, I did see that scene in Band of Brothers. I don't see how that applies here. Not choosing to serve against one's will, is far different than going to a foreign country and serving against our forces in battle.
Again, thank you for taking time to read the post, and for posting your thoughtful, and respectfully presented comments.
It becomes far to easy to slide down that slope when one fails to define terms, and recognize that forced service is at best servitude, and at worst, slavery (by definition). Whether that force comes from an individual (human trafficking) or a government doesn't change the nature of the situation.
Respectful Regards.
First, to answer your initial question. There is nothing, either in this country's founding, nor in it's Constitution that demands, as a duty that a person serve in the military involuntarily. I see you qualified your statement with the words "during a national emergency" Are you aware that President's declared "national emergencies" scores of times since the late 1970's, usually to seize, or freeze money of foreign countries, or entities? Could any, or all of these "national emergencies" require one to exercise that duty to serve?
The only thing a person owes THIS country, is to be a productive member of it, to the extent of their ability, and to therefore, not be a burden upon it. As I stated in the original post: If the Federal government wants to get people to serve in the armed forces, either in peacetime, or for their declared emergency, they should be able to justify said emergency, in such a way as to entice people to volunteer for service.
This could include things like:
1. A Just Cause that people are willing to enlist for.
2. Commensurate pay and benefits that would encourage people to volunteer.
3. I'll reiterate, one suspects there will be no shortage of volunteers if the US is ever invaded.
Is it really your position that we can't be a free country unless we give our government the power to force service upon it's citizens? Historically, conscription is how governments commit treasure and blood, to often terrible causes, and does so on the cheap.
Lastly, Being in disagreement with the decisions of politicians on what is an emergency, and what is not, does NOT mean one is in disagreement with the fundamental principles of civil, and economic Liberty, which is the foundation of the United States.
By the way, I did see that scene in Band of Brothers. I don't see how that applies here. Not choosing to serve against one's will, is far different than going to a foreign country and serving against our forces in battle.
Again, thank you for taking time to read the post, and for posting your thoughtful, and respectfully presented comments.
It becomes far to easy to slide down that slope when one fails to define terms, and recognize that forced service is at best servitude, and at worst, slavery (by definition). Whether that force comes from an individual (human trafficking) or a government doesn't change the nature of the situation.
Respectful Regards.
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If by dodge the draft we mean purposely evade the requirement to serve if so called to do so along with so many others, then I cannot help but I feel pity for those People. I can’t imagine what it must feel like to see family and friends answer the call to duty, some not to return. I can’t understand why someone would take such a decision but I can feel sad for them.
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SSG Gerhard S.
On a personal, level, as one who served voluntarily for 22 years, I hold some agreement with your sentiment. I served, voluntarily, and was proud, and honored to do so.
On the other hand, I volunteered. Had I been forced to leave my job, and my family, to disrupt my plans for my family, and our future, for a very low paying military training and combat tour on the other side of the world, while placing my life at great risk,..... who knows? I might have felt differently. I can only guess, and have difficulty even imagining. The military was part of my plan from pre adulthood. When one further considers the conduct of our politicians and lack the of total commitment to the cause, and to its forces, both volunteer, and conscripted, during the Vietnam conflict, one might have even greater reservations.
Thank you for your thought provoking comments, and for taking the time to read the post.
Respectful regards Chief!
On the other hand, I volunteered. Had I been forced to leave my job, and my family, to disrupt my plans for my family, and our future, for a very low paying military training and combat tour on the other side of the world, while placing my life at great risk,..... who knows? I might have felt differently. I can only guess, and have difficulty even imagining. The military was part of my plan from pre adulthood. When one further considers the conduct of our politicians and lack the of total commitment to the cause, and to its forces, both volunteer, and conscripted, during the Vietnam conflict, one might have even greater reservations.
Thank you for your thought provoking comments, and for taking the time to read the post.
Respectful regards Chief!
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Educational deferments were necessary in order to insure an educated populous... All military academies appointees were deferred until they finished school, no one knew how long the war would last. President Trump went on to use his education to develop corporations that employed hundreds of thousands of people. Each job he created provided momentary support to the US Military through the taxes that generated. Money that would not have went to the military had he not received that education. Would America have been served better by having someone in a foxhole in Vietnam not able to function due to a medical condition?
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As a Vietnam veteran in 1970 I accepted the movement to stop the war even while serving in country but if you ask me to defend draft dodgers...never. If you were classified 1A and opposed the war then you could have filed as a conscientious objector otherwise regardless of your political beliefs you should have served. Exceptional reasons to allow avoidance would be If you were classified section 8, 1F, (mentally or physically unacceptable). I felt then and I still feel that dodging the draft was an act of cowardice, fear of peer pressure, or just scared tactics. Today, I am more willing to give consideration to an individual who admits that they dodged the draft because they scared before I will accept a political excuse. As for the way we were treated when we returned...totally unacceptable. The fact that society currently wants to thank me for my service, I laugh to myself say if you really want honor the Vietnam Veteran than apologize and then say "Welcome Home". I also will never excuse Jane Fonda's decision to side with North Vietnam leaders. As a ambassador of America she should have never supported the north. I felt it helped festered and supported the growing hatred of the returning Vietnam veteran. I'm sure some will not support my position but I promise you more Vietnam veterans do than don't.
As a veteran, I ALWAYS say... "Welcome Home!"
As a veteran, I ALWAYS say... "Welcome Home!"
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