Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
The north would have lost the civil war without a draft. Lots of military age young men avoided the draft in the civil war and the 2nd world war. We cannot afford to have individuals determine who will serve and who will not serve in a major war.
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I went volunteered proudly to go If you don't kick ass someone will take your freedom away. People that didn't go I don't care. It was a war but through it all, I wound up loving everybody 45 th DUST OFF AIR AMBULANCE We picked up everybody war sucks But you better be ready to fight to keep your freedom it isn't free.
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Don't ask someone to do what you refused to do . As far as I'm concerned Prez heel spur is not fit to command.
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CPL John Sutor
I was just an E 4 , in Nam , you now have Generals coming forward and are making those same statements " trump is not fit to command " . I agree with them and respect them coming forward at this time . I wouldn't want him in my squad . I guess sooner or later he would have become casualty of friendly fire.
OOOPS! MY BAD.
OOOPS! MY BAD.
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SSG (Join to see)
CPL John Sutor - First off you are wrong. And who are you comparing Trump to? Hillary? Obama? Biden? None of which had military careers. And I have no idea what CIC is and why you would want it in "your ass".
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I served during Vietnam. Most of those that I knew and served there didn't have a problem with people that avoided the draft. What they did get upset about though were those people that made harsh personal attacks against those serving at the time. Avoid the war, criticize the war, both no problem. Criticize or make slanderous claims toward the troop would get one a thumbs down, way down, 100 percent of the time.
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(Join to see)
Exactly SrA ! That is How kerry became a Traitor, saying American Troo[ps were 'baby killers' !
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To answer A-politically, anyone who had a legal deferment had exactly that, they are not dodging. They are following a legitimate path for exclusion, particularly medical. If someone lies, using legal exclusions unlawfully they are dodging. Regardless of who that is, their wealth or station in life is immaterial. Now do you want my true, personal opinion-I think we should still have a draft, every able bodied person(make or female) should serve some term. I think service should include, Military’s, coast guard, peace Corp and the like. In today’s society it is much harder to gain exclusions that are unwarranted. Thank you all for your service.
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SSG (Join to see)
Yeah many countries have a compulsory service. Korea and Israel are two and it seems to work alright for them. I think a couple years of service would help our country.
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I'm not sure I agree with draft dodging, as it is a matter of character to me, but there has always been a college out, provided you kept up your grades. On the other hand, I once knew a man who turned down an officers commision in Mexico, only to serve as a private in the jungles of the Pacific in WW2. I am retired Army, but missed the draft. When my time came to serve, I forced the Army to cut me orders to OEF, that alone won me the admiration of the Vietnam vets, (I was a technician) when most tried to get out of their commitment after 911. I will say that since Jimmy Carter let the draft dodgers back in the country without repercussion from running to Canada, the Army has become soft on AWOL cases, and without the political bite it once had. Heck, peoples feelings seem to be of greater priority today, than Duty, Honor, and Country were in the past.
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When one uses their wealth and influence to avoid the risks shared by fellow citizens. Having used that wealth to avoid that risk, you go on to suggest that military prep school was like serving, and then go on to claim that you know more than the generals, yeah, it should be held against you. That makes him a lesser man.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your thoughts, and comments, but I would respectfully ask, do you hold such disdain for all who wish to avoid servitude?
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1SG (Join to see)
SSG Gerhard S. I have disdain for anyone, like Trump, who dodged the same risks other Americans faced solely due to wealth and influence. Same goes for wealthy and influential that commit crimes, yet dodge the punishment the average citizen would face.
Are you suggesting that someone who lacked wealth and influence and fled to Canada because they had the risk thrust upon them because of those, such as Trump, essentially passes their risk to them?
Are you suggesting that someone who lacked wealth and influence and fled to Canada because they had the risk thrust upon them because of those, such as Trump, essentially passes their risk to them?
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SSG Gerhard S.
1SG (Join to see) no, 1SG. I am suggesting our government shouldn't be conscripting people into servitude, regardless their wealth, or lack thereof. A barrier built on the ideals of economic and political freedom should not be in the business of pressing individuals into servitude...
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Cpl David Bientz
SSG Seidel, respectfully, in the event of a WW III which we ALL pray never happens, and we found our volunteers were not enough manpower to protect our country, would you support a draft or perhaps just surrender?
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Vietnam and Vietnam era veterans should be upset that people dodged the draft and then were pardoned by President Ford. This didn't happen in any prior wars and allowed these people to then use various nefarious tactics like affirmative action to see that they got and kept the best jobs, especially on college campuses and in Democrat party political organizations. Pentagon bomber Bill Ayers is an example.
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Lt Col John Culley
President Gerald Ford's blanket amnesty to draft dodgers should have been accompanied by a second amnesty covering all comparable offenses committed during the same period by either Vietnam vets or Vietnam era vets.
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COL Jon Lopey
All: When I returned from overseas in 1974, I was assigned to the Marine Base Deserter Section at Camp Pendleton. We had over 6,000 case files. I remember guys coming in after the amnesty (most looked like hippies) but in reality, as I recall, most were not court-martialed but received administrative discharges. Many received less than honorable discharges unless they had combat records. A friend of mine was a deserter for six years but he turned himself in, worked hard and when he was court martialed, everyone in the chain of command stuck up for him because he was a good man who made a mistake. He was Purple Heart recipient. I bought his ribbons for him so he could wear them during his courts martial. He had no money. He got busted to E-1, stayed for 2.5 more years and when I got back from overseas, he was already a corporal (E-4), ready to get out. He was an exception. Thanks for the great comments! Semper Fi, COL L
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Lt Col John Culley
Why were the POWs like John McCain the only Vietnam veterans who got any sort of welcome home at President Nixon's White House gala? Why are there no YouTube videos showing any Vietnam veterans being welcomed home in a civilized manner?
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I was drafted in 1966 and had less than two weeks left in the quarter at tech school. I called my draft board and asked for an extension. The "lady" at the board told me that I had a two year draft deferment and it was over. I didn't know it was a two year deferment. I lost the money that I had paid the school. I ended up going in and fortunately got to go to Infantry OCS and flight school. I served twenty-eight years. At my 45th high school class reunion, I heard one of my classmates state that he got out of the draft by marrying his high school sweetheart shortly after she graduated. I decided that I would get even. Just before my 50th reunion, I decided to attend in my dress blues. I went all out and brought a new set. ( My original set shrunk in the closet in the past many years) I showed up at the reunion and the girls that had avoided me in high school were impressed. The guy rush up to me and said, "What a great suit, where can I get one?'" Before I could say a word, my Army Brat wife said, "You don't buy it, you earn it". The guy avoided me all night. The next year was my wife's 50th and just before the reunion, the guy's wife calls me and asks if I would wear my blues to the reunion. I told her I would and did.
Those guys made their decisions to avoid the draft. Those cowards that went to Canada, I don't have any respect. The draft seem to select a few and let others continue to live their lives. It was the luck of the draw for some folks. I've got other things to do rather than worry about those who dodged the draft.
Those guys made their decisions to avoid the draft. Those cowards that went to Canada, I don't have any respect. The draft seem to select a few and let others continue to live their lives. It was the luck of the draw for some folks. I've got other things to do rather than worry about those who dodged the draft.
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Sgt (Join to see)
LTC Gary Earls Well said Colonel. I still have my uniforms in my seabag. I am afraid that if I tried them on, that they may have also shrunk over the years.
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SP5 Dennis Dorsey
Isn't it funny how all our old uniforms seem to shrink as we get older? Must be something in the water.
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The world, (the U.S. at least), was a different place in the 50's and early 60's and you can't equate it with how things are today. They called us Baby Boomers, but we were really an extension of the WWII generation, with most of the values of our folks. One of those was military service, and pretty much everybody went. Till the 90's, if you aspired to political office, military service better be on your resume. Back in the day, you graduated high school and either joined or waited for "greetings." There was no choice in the matter. Your father, older brothers, uncles, cousins, and friends went, so did you. I know my folks weren't happy when I got my "invitation" from President Nixon, (neither was I), but not going wasn't an option. What others did is something they need to live with. Personally, whether one used the system, Daddy's money/influence, or just ran for the border, it all amounted to the same thing, "I'm better than you." It's been long enough, I don't harbor any grudges. That said, if you were one of the "privileged," do us both a favor, don't pick at the scab. You'll get your feelings hurt.
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