Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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I have heard that the draft has not been used since Vietnam because the practice of forcing someone to serve against their will means they don't want to be there and therefore the attitude alone means they give pi** poor performance.
You'll be familiar with the Stop Loss program used in Iraq. I've been told it yielded pretty much the same result. Forcing even senior NCO's and officers to remain and extending their contracts breeds resentment and giving bonuses does little to mollify the voluntolds.
I myself was a late-life entry into the Army, joining when I was nearly 37. When the economy dropped out in 2008-2009, I was facing another long period of unemployment and I decided I needed a life change. I knew that the Army was accepting those up to 42 years old having raised the age limit. The recruiters were seeing an abundance of volunteers coming in approaching or past the age of 36 wanting to "do their part." They had to be turned down even if they hadn't passed 36 but would before finalization of the process. Making it a permanent consideration for the military to accept those willing volunteers at least for the Army is something that can battle the poor attitudes of those forced into service via the draft. I saw more than a few people who volunteered and then wanted to flat-out quit once the realization of what they had done had hit them. From the first weeks of Basic up to having been deployed and having trouble coping with constant fire coming into a COP or FOB.
I personally know an SFC who cracked under pressure during what was his AND my first deployment. He was afraid to go shower or go to chow hall. He did it as a line Company PSG and then again when given the position of PSG for BN PSD. We all know that no one can tell who or when some will "snap." Some may shine when they come in as a draftee and not regret the experience, as you yourself stated. But the draft seems to carry a stigma that if invoked again, will trigger at least a tiny knee-jerk reaction in a bad way for the males who are eligible. No matter how the government dresses it up by referring to it as "Selective Service," people will still know it as the draft. I can still remember when in the '80's, when telling young men to register for it, the commercial had an upbeat jingle and dancing actors as if that's what you would be doing once inducted.
I think from now on, we will be drawing from volunteers if they feel "the cause is right." I hope we will never see another event on the scale of either Pearl Harbor or 9/11 to draw willing participants. If we should though, our history as and pride as a nation seem to rally people to the cause. Let's hope that pride hasn't eroded too much lately!
You'll be familiar with the Stop Loss program used in Iraq. I've been told it yielded pretty much the same result. Forcing even senior NCO's and officers to remain and extending their contracts breeds resentment and giving bonuses does little to mollify the voluntolds.
I myself was a late-life entry into the Army, joining when I was nearly 37. When the economy dropped out in 2008-2009, I was facing another long period of unemployment and I decided I needed a life change. I knew that the Army was accepting those up to 42 years old having raised the age limit. The recruiters were seeing an abundance of volunteers coming in approaching or past the age of 36 wanting to "do their part." They had to be turned down even if they hadn't passed 36 but would before finalization of the process. Making it a permanent consideration for the military to accept those willing volunteers at least for the Army is something that can battle the poor attitudes of those forced into service via the draft. I saw more than a few people who volunteered and then wanted to flat-out quit once the realization of what they had done had hit them. From the first weeks of Basic up to having been deployed and having trouble coping with constant fire coming into a COP or FOB.
I personally know an SFC who cracked under pressure during what was his AND my first deployment. He was afraid to go shower or go to chow hall. He did it as a line Company PSG and then again when given the position of PSG for BN PSD. We all know that no one can tell who or when some will "snap." Some may shine when they come in as a draftee and not regret the experience, as you yourself stated. But the draft seems to carry a stigma that if invoked again, will trigger at least a tiny knee-jerk reaction in a bad way for the males who are eligible. No matter how the government dresses it up by referring to it as "Selective Service," people will still know it as the draft. I can still remember when in the '80's, when telling young men to register for it, the commercial had an upbeat jingle and dancing actors as if that's what you would be doing once inducted.
I think from now on, we will be drawing from volunteers if they feel "the cause is right." I hope we will never see another event on the scale of either Pearl Harbor or 9/11 to draw willing participants. If we should though, our history as and pride as a nation seem to rally people to the cause. Let's hope that pride hasn't eroded too much lately!
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By avoid the draft, I assume you are talking about the Vietnam War, so my comments are limited to that conflict, but in a nutshell: no.
I was too young to serve at that time, but was standing in formation in 1976. That said, I admire Muhammed Ali for taking a public stand and understand those who used deferments as a means to avoid the draft or ran to Canada once those ran out. That's ancient history and the country has officially reconciled with those who refused the call. What repels me are the hypocritical politicians who took those deferments and have wrapped themselves in the flag and are now so cavalier about sending our troops into harm's way, rabbits who now fashion themselves hawks.
In response to your feeling that the draft constitutes a form of slavery, I think you're looking at the issue improperly. The citizen-soldier is a distinctly American concept and a 6 year term of service for every male citizen is enshrined in the constitution. It is your obligation as an American citizen to serve for the greater good of this country. You do not exist apart from your family, community or country and all that you enjoy derives from those relationships. Service is neither slavery or involuntary servitude, it is your duty.
I was too young to serve at that time, but was standing in formation in 1976. That said, I admire Muhammed Ali for taking a public stand and understand those who used deferments as a means to avoid the draft or ran to Canada once those ran out. That's ancient history and the country has officially reconciled with those who refused the call. What repels me are the hypocritical politicians who took those deferments and have wrapped themselves in the flag and are now so cavalier about sending our troops into harm's way, rabbits who now fashion themselves hawks.
In response to your feeling that the draft constitutes a form of slavery, I think you're looking at the issue improperly. The citizen-soldier is a distinctly American concept and a 6 year term of service for every male citizen is enshrined in the constitution. It is your obligation as an American citizen to serve for the greater good of this country. You do not exist apart from your family, community or country and all that you enjoy derives from those relationships. Service is neither slavery or involuntary servitude, it is your duty.
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SSG Gerhard S.
SPC John Tacetta "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions."
Tell, which of these three categories did Vietnam fall under?
Tell, which of these three categories did Vietnam fall under?
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SPC John Tacetta
Clearly it's "Execute the Laws of the Union": it really is a very broad brush. Law A says B: do B. Don't do B: accept consequence. Again, see 10 USC.
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SPC John Tacetta
SSG Gerhard S. - Me I don't think a War is lawful unless an appropriate declaration is made by Congress, but that power is seemingly diminished and precedent (a very strong legal doctrine) has moved us to a series of "Police Actions" and "Resolutions" which have alarmingly expanded the power of the Presidency. But that's another discussion.
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SPC Albert Blosser
I assume that MOST of the commenters on here have served, so I don't see why so many are defending those who didn't just avoid, but purposely evaded serving. (Clinton, Trump) I went, served in the infantry, came home, 100% disability, still have the best friends who still have my back, as I will always have theirs. No regrets.
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Well said. But I’m not sure an all volunteer Military is working well enough to keep it going.
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SPC John Tacetta
I agree. The current level of engagement is trivial and the Army is struggling to meet its recruitment goals. Things will certainly change during a major conflict.
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imagine a draft dodger acting all patriotic by hugging the flag while vilifying all those who served. And we still have retards veterans supporting donald lying trump
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Paula Minger
You had to have lived through the VIETNAM War to understand. Draft dodging was often supported and paid for by Mother’s and Fathers...
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Cpl Tou Lee Yang
Paula Minger - in other words, you have to be rich to win at life. Too bad we were poor nomads living in the mountain of Laos, my father fought during the Vietnam war, he died when I was barely a month old. And all my mother got in return was a 100lbs bag of rice and a 50lbs bag of dry milk.
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There is a huge difference between a draft dodger and a person who lawfully utilized deferments such as college and those that received medical deferments. I entered during the time when there was a draft. I had little respect for those that dodged the draft by taking off for Canada and other countries. On the other hand, I understand the need for college educated people to enter the service. Remember, not every officer goes to an academy. The ranks are full of men and women who got their education on their own. The deferment, as I understand it, ends when the college education ends. It then can give the person the option of attending OCS or serving the 2 years as a draftee. I was OK with that. Plus the government just saved the cost of educating someone. People like Trump got both. He was attending college, but he also had bone spurs in his foot. I checked this out some time back. Bone spurs are one of those ailments that may or may not be a problem in the future. When drafted, everyone is a potential foot soldier. Several medical boards came to agree that in his case it was better to exempt him than to draft him. Unless someone has proof to the contrary, I do not consider him a draft dodger. I don't think that several military medical boards were taking bribes. It was a medical opinion.
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GySgt William Hardy
PS - When citing Mohamed Ali, he is not really a draft dodger. He didn't dodge but took it head on. His contention was that it violated his moral beliefs. Even though he went through the whole legal mess, in the end the courts sided with him. Standing up for your beliefs is not dodging the draft and while I do not agree with the decision I respect the man for his standing up for his beliefs and I follow the law which means he is not required to serve.
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SPC Albert Blosser
evidently you didn't research it enough. Trump bought his bone spurs from a doctor who was a client of his father. He had no record of previous bone spurs. Draft boards couldn't override a medical doctors diagnosis, and most of them didn't forward the draftee to take a government medical exam because of the volume of men being drafted. You are correct in that a college deferment was not draft dodging. It is what they did after that deferment ended that became draft dodging.
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SP6 Peter Kreutzfeldt
One thing I have to give Trump, when exiting the Chopper, he did not salute the Marine with a cup of coffee in his hand as did Obummer. But lets not turn this forum into political debates
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Paula Minger
There were few neighborhoods in California that weren’t visited by the FBI during the Vietnam War looking for someone’s son the family sent to hide
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SP6 Peter Kreutzfeldt
I remember one Senators son in the Nam. He had more security around him than the president
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The draft did cause some havoc in many a young man's life... think of it, there were only three choices for an able-bodied man: serve; go to jail; or, leave the country. If one did not have a deferment (university/specialized training, such as for morticians) or a medical/mental issue, then one was "in line" to serve. I graduated college in June, 1968, (a few months after the major Tet Offensive in Feb.), and two weeks after graduation, I received a notice for the "pre-induction" physical. If you passed that, your place "in line" was assured! The "draft lottery" did not come into effect until Dec., 1969. But, I was not averse to serving in the military, I just wanted to have some choice. I had taken Russian and German in college, so I looked into military intelligence options. OK, one could say I was a "draft-induced" volunteer, but I showed up and scoped out my options with a recruiter. I signed up for three years, went in for MI training and I have never regretted that choice. Also, I served with the finest group of fellows I would ever have hoped to have met on this green Earth! Some people do like the idea of the "great equalizer" that the military is... everyone has to do the same, no one is special, and you have to watch out for each other. My basic training sergeant in basic training stated there were only two colors in the Army: the colors you salute and OD! Yes, life is only better and a gift for sure after you've marched all day in rain and mud, bivouacked in 15 degrees below zero, hopped to doing whatever your sergeant said. And, luckily, I was never in a war zone, but most of my cadre were Korean War vets... and. they suffered no fools! Our SDI (senior drill instructor), E-7, was in the wars in Korea and Vietnam, and had always been in the infantry. All of us recruits felt that if we went to war, that was the guy we wanted to go with... he'd bring you back!
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your service, and for sharing your experiences, and perspective. Many of us have known someone in our careers in the same light.
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I am not a fan of draft dodgers or people that used their privilege to avoid service. Some pre enlistment deferments made a lot of sense particularly those with severe medical issues. I personally think this was a mistake not requiring people with minor health ailments to serve. There are many jobs in all the branches of service that could be done by people who have the limitations that would keep them out of combat. As far as the job of The President, I believe that person should have military experience of some kind. The person at the top of the chain of command should have military experience , understand exactly what is at stake when putting Americans in harms way. I also believe in some form of mandatory service for all Americans either after high school or if enrolled at college then after college separation. I think two years active and two in a reserve status would be ideal for all. I think military service has important rewards that are not necessarily monetary but socially rewarding as you learn how to work and live with people that may not be similar to you or from your part of the country. Most people leave the military better citizens than they were before service. The country would also benefit with a constant flow of personnel into the military, there should be a branch for individuals who are not physically able or pacifists to work on our countries infrastructure or disaster relief type jobs.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I'm curious, see to whether you have a comment related to the Crux of the article. That being the idea that forced "service" is servitude?
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SSG Gerhard S.
Whether one is forced into military servitude, or non military servitude, makes little difference... It's still forced servitude
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MSG Felipe De Leon Brown
If the CinC is not a veteran, he/she should at least have close ties with a family member or, at the very least, a friend who is a vet. Barring that, they need to seek council always with veteran in their staff who has "been there, done that." Without the insight/input of an experienced veteran any leader is already doomed to fall on their own sword when addressing veterans' issues.
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SPC Mark Spivey
SSG Gerhard S. - I think my views were based on a “Draft” , during times of war. I do believe a few years of service during ones late teens and early twenties would be mostly a good thing. Today the military is very selective and times have changed since my enlistment, however I think some individuals who are not up to the new enlistment standards could really benefit from what the military has to offer. I am also a father and have experienced one of my kids struggle with life, no direction, and in need of some structure and discipline, but unwilling to enlist and ultimately becoming unable to enlist even if he wanted to. As far as forced servitude, I can go either way, on one hand I understand the military can’t be a fix all for misdirected youth, but I have personally witnessed the complete change in troubled individuals becoming outstanding citizens. Many of the young people today can’t deal with basic life skills needed to thrive in this world. The military is a good kick in the ass, it was for me.
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