Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
Draft dodging is a federal felony with no statute of limitations. Draft avoidance, if it was done lawfully, is not. To Vietnam era people, as the undeclared war went on, it became clear we were not in it to win it. Killing a Commie for mommy without the will to defeat the enemy was not going to get the same patriotic reaction as we saw in WWII or even Korea. So no, I don’t look down on those who used lawful deferments.
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SSG Rochard Gonzales
Brian, the man I am speaking DID NOT use ‘legal’ deferments, but rather paid a doctor to write a false medical condition. Not only is the person in question guilty of a felony but the doctor should be as well.
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Brian Smith
As the war went on, I think that sort of situation was more common than we realize. Didn’t make it right or legal. Still, I don’t recall the government going after deferment cheats. They went hard after those without legal deferments who were drafted, but refused to report.
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A military draft unless compulsory for everyone regardless of physical or mental condition, doesn't fit either definition. Even during the Great Wars, Korean and Vietnam Wars, there were numerous legal ways to get a deferment. Most European countries until recently, had compulsory military service, but you could still get out of it. Even the old Soviet Empire had compulsory service, yet studies have shown that only about 75% of it's eligible male citizenry served. Registration for the draft is still compulsory for all males at 18 years of age and there is growing agreement that women should also register. The only way we would actually invoke the draft at this point, was if our nations survival was at risk.
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While we had the draft it was the law, so compliance was required. I'm not upset with those who gamed the system, but I don't agree with them. For those who refused and accepted the consequences, I have disagreement, but respect. Those who cut and ran, however, deserve nothing but scorn. Carter's first act as President was an act of treason, when he pardoned the draft dodgers and brought them home from Canada and elsewhere.
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Suspended Profile
I will never forget and I will never forgive. I'm old RA United States Army.
SPC Michael Terrell
I was US. I was rejected and given five 4F ratings. Two years later, I was drafted. My MOS was engineering, and I was often told, 'you're not very GI!' I would look them in the eye and tell them, "I'm US, I was rejected, then drafted so get over your sorry self. I do my job well and on time." Most refused to believe that I had tested out of a three year engineering school, but my skills were why they drafted a 20 year old in spite of my health issues. I wasn't afraiid to rock the boat, and I didn't put up with any crap. I got along with about 99% of those I served with, both RA and US. The ones I despised were the 'If you haven't been in combat, you aren't a real soldier' types. Anyone who served, could die while in the service. Even so called REMFs in jobs like mine died in Vietnam when their section was hit by a missile. One piece of equipment that was shipped to me in Alaska was a Gates TV transmitter with bullet holes from a station that was overrun. I was supposed to be assigned to an AFRTS station in Vietnam, but was diverted to a place where you risked dying from several cold weather for more than half of the year. I left active duty after two years, because my MOS was being turned over to civilians. I was SP4 at 18 months and I have a letter of Commendation from a two star General for my work in Alaska.
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Since this just popped up in my notifications I’d just like to add that anyone who tries holding legal deferments against Pres. Trump can’t say crap this cycle if they don’t hold it against Biden.
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SMSgt Bob W.
SPC Albert Blosser - As did Biden's for his college deferment; however, he also had a medical issue.
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SMSgt Bob W.
SPC Albert Blosser - Al, I don't buy a deferment for either; you are either qualified to service or you're not. It's the same old story--money talks. The "fat one," not the "senile one" should have served after college. I had friends who got married to get out of the military [a lot of them ended in divorce, especially when the Selective Service stated you must have a child to be exempt for the draft.].
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SPC Albert Blosser
SMSgt Bob W. - Biden had been diagnosed as a child with asthma which was an automatic rejection of ability to serve. I have a grandson who also was diagnosed with asthma, he went on to excel in football and basketball clear into college. He did have an inhaler on the sideline for safety. But he would be ineligible to join the service.
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If you fit into a recognized category that exempts you from service, then so be it. If YOU have a problem with that, then work politically to have those deferments removed. Until then, mind your damn business.
Those of you who blatantly turned your back on your country should be turning big rocks into little rocks still today. I don't see the difference between you and Jane Fonda.
Those of you who blatantly turned your back on your country should be turning big rocks into little rocks still today. I don't see the difference between you and Jane Fonda.
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SSG Gerhard S.
So, Involuntary servitude, or prison? Such great choices for those in the "Land of the Free".
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SFC Mark Klaers
For deferments, no. LEGAL reasons for not serving are fine. I personally wouldn't do it. But if you break the law, you need to go to jail. If you don't like the law, campaign politically to change it. However, if you lose in the political arena, then obey the law and report.
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I was drafted and I went willingly to serve because as a Cuban born citizen. I love freedom.
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There is a big difference between those who DODGED THE DRAFT and those who received deferments. The Draft Dodgers were the ones who rioted, spit on returning Veterans and ran like little babies to Canada. When I returned via plane to LAX after my fourth deployment to Vietnam, I was greeted by a dimwit at the airport who spit on my shoes to honor my uniform. I walked up close to him after calling me a woman and baby killer, pointed down at my shoes and asked him why he spit on them. Because you are a baby killer her yelled. I told him to look at the spit on my shoes and asked him if he would wipe it off because I was not a baby killer. When he looked down I gave him an upper cut that broke his jaw and knocked him out. Two of his friends hurried over to an airport guard and accused me of Assault and Battery. Three different older gentlemen stepped up to the guard and told him that it was the other way around. The injured man had assaulted me and I just defended myself against someone who was 6 inches taller and 40 pounds heavier than I. After everything was cleared away I asked the three men why they had defended me. They started by thanking me for my service and said that they had all served in World War II. I thanked them for their service and for defending me with the guard.
I am sorry to say that most of my male cousins took off for Canada. The two who didn't were both medically unfit to serve. My aunts and uncles asked me why I enlisted. I told them to pay my country back for all the benefits and freedoms that I received because I was born in the U.S.A. and did not have to earn them. That was why I did six tours in Vietnam and remained in the Navy for 28 years and 9 months.
I am sorry to say that most of my male cousins took off for Canada. The two who didn't were both medically unfit to serve. My aunts and uncles asked me why I enlisted. I told them to pay my country back for all the benefits and freedoms that I received because I was born in the U.S.A. and did not have to earn them. That was why I did six tours in Vietnam and remained in the Navy for 28 years and 9 months.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your ongoing, and voluntary service, and for having to endure the ingrates who confronted you upon your return.
I agree: There is a difference between deferments, and running off to another country, to avoid being forced to serve. One was deemed legal by politicians, the other not. The first, tended to keep the more well-to-do from forced service, the latter kept the less wealthy, and less well connected the same "benefit".
I think it's great that there are people like you, and I, who volunteered to serve, but service, isn't for everyone. I'm sure you've seen some draftees, and volunteers alike, who had no business being in the military... I know I have. I was Infantry/ Long Range Surveillance, and frankly, I'm glad I had men with me in Iraq, who volunteered, and wanted to be there.
There's no way to confuse voluntary service forced service. The difference doesn't lie in the laws made by politicians, but rather in the heart, and mind of the one serving. Conflating these two different issues, voluntary service, vs forced servitude, does the first, a disservice.
General Westmoreland once said (paraphrasing) a all volunteer force would be akin to a Mercenary force, to which Milton Freidman replied, that's better than an army of slaves.
Respectful regards, thank you for your often repeated voluntary service to our great country. And thank you for sharing your thoughts, and experiences on this, often sensitive issue.
https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/milton-friedman-centennial-appreciation
I agree: There is a difference between deferments, and running off to another country, to avoid being forced to serve. One was deemed legal by politicians, the other not. The first, tended to keep the more well-to-do from forced service, the latter kept the less wealthy, and less well connected the same "benefit".
I think it's great that there are people like you, and I, who volunteered to serve, but service, isn't for everyone. I'm sure you've seen some draftees, and volunteers alike, who had no business being in the military... I know I have. I was Infantry/ Long Range Surveillance, and frankly, I'm glad I had men with me in Iraq, who volunteered, and wanted to be there.
There's no way to confuse voluntary service forced service. The difference doesn't lie in the laws made by politicians, but rather in the heart, and mind of the one serving. Conflating these two different issues, voluntary service, vs forced servitude, does the first, a disservice.
General Westmoreland once said (paraphrasing) a all volunteer force would be akin to a Mercenary force, to which Milton Freidman replied, that's better than an army of slaves.
Respectful regards, thank you for your often repeated voluntary service to our great country. And thank you for sharing your thoughts, and experiences on this, often sensitive issue.
https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/milton-friedman-centennial-appreciation
Milton Friedman, A Centennial Appreciation
At the height of the Vietnam War, U.S. commander Gen. William Westmoreland testified before the President’s Commission on an All‐Volunteer Force. The 15 members of that commission were charged with exploring the feasibility of ending the military draft.
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I am a female veteran and I don't have much to add. I agree completely. An all-volunteer force means we all want to be here.
The problem I see is that cash talks.
If we don't have enough volunteers (because they are so out of shape that it's dangerous for them to attempt Basic Training or Boot Camp.
We already use contractors. We have since 2003, at least. My brother in law is an Army veteran who repaired choppers for $20, 25k a year. He signed on as a contractor in Iraq doing the same job for ten times the money. They work right by the military, so the camaraderie still exists.
Are you concerned about developing a warrior culture separate from everyone else that does our fighting for us.? (For a price.)
The dilemma is one I hope that we won't face, but I feel we need to address it.
Hired guns don't take an oath. There are so many veterans seething because Putin put a bounty on US military service members to the Taliban fighters and after POTUS was informed, he tried to get Russia in the G7& failed but still invited Putin to visit. That's when our POTUS seemed to establish his bromance with the leader of a superpower. Regardless, we must change his mind!
The problem I see is that cash talks.
If we don't have enough volunteers (because they are so out of shape that it's dangerous for them to attempt Basic Training or Boot Camp.
We already use contractors. We have since 2003, at least. My brother in law is an Army veteran who repaired choppers for $20, 25k a year. He signed on as a contractor in Iraq doing the same job for ten times the money. They work right by the military, so the camaraderie still exists.
Are you concerned about developing a warrior culture separate from everyone else that does our fighting for us.? (For a price.)
The dilemma is one I hope that we won't face, but I feel we need to address it.
Hired guns don't take an oath. There are so many veterans seething because Putin put a bounty on US military service members to the Taliban fighters and after POTUS was informed, he tried to get Russia in the G7& failed but still invited Putin to visit. That's when our POTUS seemed to establish his bromance with the leader of a superpower. Regardless, we must change his mind!
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SSG Gerhard S.
You were doing so well... Right up until you switched a cogent, and reasonable statement into a partisan political one. There was nothing partisan about the article, it's premise, OR it's content. It seems some people just can't help themselves. Respectful regards.
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PFC Kimberly Staiti
SSG Gerhard S. My fault. That's on me, 100%
Generally, I steer clear of political statements on military sites because we didn't talk about politics when I was serving. That is until it got personal and my people were neck-deep in Iran-Contra and the dilemma of lawful v. unlawful orders hit us all right to the solar plexus.
Our nation has never faced the possibility of a CIC who was unfit for the office. I can't make the call, but I have to beg the question because of my oath.
I would like to dismiss any thoughts on it, but even Nam didn't get coverage like this with the disturbing instability of out top tier leaders who are deeply respected for their personal accomplishments and achievements during their time in service and for their personal interactions with the troops in current armed conflicts. I've lost count of the experienced, wise, respected, honored men who resigned from (or were fired from ) this administration. These career servant-warriors are ~revered~ by the troops they led and ~ridiculed~ by our CIC. The tension is real. It's tangible.
How are other top tier commanders supposed to lead the troops who entrusted their lives to these extraordinary men who are now openly, publicly, frequently belittled and ridiculed by our CIC?
The behaviour of POTUS must be assessed by each of us. It is our obligation. It is our very duty, despite the discomfort and unease we carry because of the tradition never to question the person who holds that office.
The facts are facts. This is not a mutiny or coup. We are encountering the unprecedented phenomenon of a CIC who lives without repercussions while his military is undermined by his own actions.
Is it political? Really, is this topic two-sided? I am sincerely asking.
I know that I am not the only one who is questioning the action I am duty-bound to take in the light of the behaviour of our President.
I am stunned and ashamed by the treatment of so many honourable people disparaged and replaced by POTUS with lesser men who do not ~comprehend~ what it means to fulfill their ~duty~
We are in truly perilous times.
Thoughts?
Generally, I steer clear of political statements on military sites because we didn't talk about politics when I was serving. That is until it got personal and my people were neck-deep in Iran-Contra and the dilemma of lawful v. unlawful orders hit us all right to the solar plexus.
Our nation has never faced the possibility of a CIC who was unfit for the office. I can't make the call, but I have to beg the question because of my oath.
I would like to dismiss any thoughts on it, but even Nam didn't get coverage like this with the disturbing instability of out top tier leaders who are deeply respected for their personal accomplishments and achievements during their time in service and for their personal interactions with the troops in current armed conflicts. I've lost count of the experienced, wise, respected, honored men who resigned from (or were fired from ) this administration. These career servant-warriors are ~revered~ by the troops they led and ~ridiculed~ by our CIC. The tension is real. It's tangible.
How are other top tier commanders supposed to lead the troops who entrusted their lives to these extraordinary men who are now openly, publicly, frequently belittled and ridiculed by our CIC?
The behaviour of POTUS must be assessed by each of us. It is our obligation. It is our very duty, despite the discomfort and unease we carry because of the tradition never to question the person who holds that office.
The facts are facts. This is not a mutiny or coup. We are encountering the unprecedented phenomenon of a CIC who lives without repercussions while his military is undermined by his own actions.
Is it political? Really, is this topic two-sided? I am sincerely asking.
I know that I am not the only one who is questioning the action I am duty-bound to take in the light of the behaviour of our President.
I am stunned and ashamed by the treatment of so many honourable people disparaged and replaced by POTUS with lesser men who do not ~comprehend~ what it means to fulfill their ~duty~
We are in truly perilous times.
Thoughts?
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SPC Christopher Perrien
Two notes: The Putin thing on bounties has been discredited. Also ,as to "contractors" . The ones who are on Naval reserve, or DoD contracted ships do sign the same "Ship Articles" that the US merchant marine has for sailors. I was kinda surpised at that. I was a civ DoD mechanic on a Marine RDF RO/RO ship out in the Pacific for a year. (lotta fun), but i was bound by those "Articles" for that time, and "federalized' in so many words.
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SP6 Peter Kreutzfeldt
I am 75 years old. Did 2 years in the Nam and 30 in the Fire Department. At this point I want to enjoy a good shot of Bourbon and a cigar and be left to my few vices that am still able to get with
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SPC Albert Blosser
SSG Gerhard S. - I will take it to the graves of the 56 men from my company who died.
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SP6 Peter Kreutzfeldt
SPC Albert Blosser - Read some things from Marcus Aurelius on being a Stoic and how to let things go
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