Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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I volunteered for the Navy when I was I7 because I wanted the adventure and I wanted to learn a trade. I wasn't too interested in the Army or Marines but if I was drafted I would have went. I don't have any respect for draft dodgers but that's just my opinion.
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I guess they don't know Biden got multiple medical deferments while also playing football .
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SSgt Michael Bowen
PV2 Larry Sellnow - Not the point . The point was if you are holding it against Trump but not Biden and many others in congress you're being a Hypocrite .
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As far as dodging the draft and going to Canada. They made their choice and should live with it. There were many legal ways to avoid the draft which many politicians of both parties took advantage of (another time to rant about them). There were options. My uncle did not support the war, but went when drafted. He refused OCS (BA from NWern U). he went into the Nuclear Corps figuring Nam would never go nuclear. He was forced to suffer in Germany (sarcasm). But he did serve. I was a young boy when he was promoted to acting Corporal in to just out of Basic. I was a Cub Scout and wore a set of E-4 stripes that he sent me on my uniform and Army jacket.
Which reminds me of a story (Sorry). In 1972 when the Paris Peace Accord was signed, my Scout Master, a (former) Marine with a high and tight at 50, said to us that we can take our jackets off as the war was over. We didn't understand. He assumed that we wore the army jackets to protest the military. When we told him we wore them to support the Army, he shed a tear.
Sorry for the long post, Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukah, and may 2021 be a better year.
Which reminds me of a story (Sorry). In 1972 when the Paris Peace Accord was signed, my Scout Master, a (former) Marine with a high and tight at 50, said to us that we can take our jackets off as the war was over. We didn't understand. He assumed that we wore the army jackets to protest the military. When we told him we wore them to support the Army, he shed a tear.
Sorry for the long post, Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukah, and may 2021 be a better year.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your service, your thoughtful comments, and for sharing your experiences.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
Unfortunately, 2021 isn't turning out so well. But, it's only August; there's still plenty of year left for something nice to happen.
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When U.S. forces are outfitted by the best-of-the-best (fittest, smartest, most persevering and honorable), we're all just that much safer. To try to force someone to serve when they're clearly going to self-select "out" even if forced to be "all in" is to put someone in your foxhole who won't have your back.
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For me it really depends on how they dodged the draft and there attitude towards the war and soldiers.
Bill Clinton was trying to get an NG commission in hopes of not being deployed, once he received his "high draft number" it became moot.
I am okay with that, because even in the guard he still served, and Bush went into the reserves to do just the same, and then deployed anyway.
I am not okay with the guys who went to Canada.
And the only bitch I have against Carter was him pardoning all of them who did it.
I would not be angered at Donald Trumps "bone spurs" if he had just kept his mouth shit, but with his attacks on Captain John McCain, veterans, and service he is worse than those who went to Canada in my opinion. He is even worse than Hanoi Jane Fonda.
Bill Clinton was trying to get an NG commission in hopes of not being deployed, once he received his "high draft number" it became moot.
I am okay with that, because even in the guard he still served, and Bush went into the reserves to do just the same, and then deployed anyway.
I am not okay with the guys who went to Canada.
And the only bitch I have against Carter was him pardoning all of them who did it.
I would not be angered at Donald Trumps "bone spurs" if he had just kept his mouth shit, but with his attacks on Captain John McCain, veterans, and service he is worse than those who went to Canada in my opinion. He is even worse than Hanoi Jane Fonda.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
As far as President Trump seeming to disrespect Senator McCain, I suspect that he had alternate intentions, rather than the bald-faced attack that it seemed to be.
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SPC Chris Ison
Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis - As much as I hate to say it, I think you are correct. I have thought about this an incredible amount, and I am not sure why, but one day it occurred to me that he just did not understand the whole picture.
He said, "He is only a hero because he got captured, I like people who don't get captured."
When *I* think of a hero I think of Audy Murphy, not captured, Sgt York, also not captured, Desmond Doss, not captured.
What do these have in common, besides not being captured? They did incredible things in the face of danger.
What Trump failed to see was that McCain was a hero in spite of being captured, not because he was captured. Flying that plane down "SAM ally" is basically storming a machine gun nest, artillery encampment, etc.It is these actions that made him a hero; That and his conduct while in captivity.
He said, "He is only a hero because he got captured, I like people who don't get captured."
When *I* think of a hero I think of Audy Murphy, not captured, Sgt York, also not captured, Desmond Doss, not captured.
What do these have in common, besides not being captured? They did incredible things in the face of danger.
What Trump failed to see was that McCain was a hero in spite of being captured, not because he was captured. Flying that plane down "SAM ally" is basically storming a machine gun nest, artillery encampment, etc.It is these actions that made him a hero; That and his conduct while in captivity.
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Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis
SPC Chris Ison - Chris, we might need to differentiate between a political comment and a comment that generally disrespects the servicemember because of their service. I suspect Trump's comment was more of the former; but Trump's political opponents could not differentiate between the two, either because they were too stupid to figure it out (not likely) or they were deliberately misconstruing his statement for the purposes of gaining political power (which is worse than being stupid). IMHO.
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SPC Chris Ison
Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis - Well he just wouldn't let it go either. He could have simply apologized, and it would have been over, but he is not the kind of person to apologize.
The constant belittling of McCain and the service in general is what upset me.
The comment that "When you talk about the mental health problems, when people come back from war and combat and they see things that maybe a lot of folks in this room have seen many times over and you're strong and you can handle it but a lot of people can't handle it. "
is just another ignorant comment that did not need to be said.
The thing that really floors me is the lack of tact. And that is coming from someone who has no tact.
Drop an F bomb in this forum and all the conservatives shit themselves; But Trump can say whatever he wants and no one blinks an eye.
The constant belittling of McCain and the service in general is what upset me.
The comment that "When you talk about the mental health problems, when people come back from war and combat and they see things that maybe a lot of folks in this room have seen many times over and you're strong and you can handle it but a lot of people can't handle it. "
is just another ignorant comment that did not need to be said.
The thing that really floors me is the lack of tact. And that is coming from someone who has no tact.
Drop an F bomb in this forum and all the conservatives shit themselves; But Trump can say whatever he wants and no one blinks an eye.
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First of all, the issue with Trump dodging the draft isn't that he did it legally, but his family probably paid the doctors to say his knees were unacceptable. Now flash forward to the future when he's POTUS and there is a school shooting and he said he would "be the first to run in there" and then someone instantly commented about how could he RUN in there if his knees were bad? Hell, if he has trouble standing and/or walking for long periods of time (enough that he wouldn't be able to perform as a Soldier) how is it that he is able to play golf as much as he does? The latest statistic shows 300 times on a golf course in the term of his presidency. That's an average of about once every 5 days (give or take). Would someone who has bad knees really be able to spend that much time walking around?
And really, the bottom line is that if someone got a medical waiver, they were unfit for military service. Again, let that sink in. Declared as unfit for military service. Do you really want that person to lead the military if they were declared unfit for military service? Honestly, I thought it was bad enough that we have too many presidents (on both sides) that never served, draft or no draft. But if for ANY reason someone was declared unfit for military service, they have no business leading it.
I agree with you about how the draft was taking away our rights. However, that was the law of the land back then. Good or bad, that is what our countries leaders decided. As a member of the military, I was taught that "You don't have to like it, you just have to do it." Military service that people sign up for is still servitude by the definition you shared. You sign away your rights and you get paid to do so. I was given orders countless times to do things I either did not agree with or I considered just outright wrong. But if someone chooses to essentially declare that they are above the law and shouldn't need to follow it, do you really want someone with that attitude either making or enforcing laws?
And really, the bottom line is that if someone got a medical waiver, they were unfit for military service. Again, let that sink in. Declared as unfit for military service. Do you really want that person to lead the military if they were declared unfit for military service? Honestly, I thought it was bad enough that we have too many presidents (on both sides) that never served, draft or no draft. But if for ANY reason someone was declared unfit for military service, they have no business leading it.
I agree with you about how the draft was taking away our rights. However, that was the law of the land back then. Good or bad, that is what our countries leaders decided. As a member of the military, I was taught that "You don't have to like it, you just have to do it." Military service that people sign up for is still servitude by the definition you shared. You sign away your rights and you get paid to do so. I was given orders countless times to do things I either did not agree with or I considered just outright wrong. But if someone chooses to essentially declare that they are above the law and shouldn't need to follow it, do you really want someone with that attitude either making or enforcing laws?
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your service, and for your thoughtful comments. For the record, the young Trump's medical deferment was for Bone spurs in his feet. Also, if youth have any evidence that his family paid a doctor to lie to the federal government about his condition, we'd all like to see it.
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PO2 Lawrence Janiec
Sorry I mis-remembered. I knew it was lower body. Also, I apologize for not putting in "probably" in my accusation. Fixed. But let's face it, if you're a millionaire family in the 60s and you want to save your child from going to die in Vietnam, what would you do? My accusation wasn't one just saying that his whole family is dishonest, it was more just a practical observation about The Golden Rule. If I was a rich kid in the 60s and wanted to avoid going to die in Vietnam, I would have done it, too. It's not a question of dishonesty in that case, it's just being smart and using the resources available to you.
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We should be upset at whoever eliminated the draft. It's the reason people virtue-signal instead of actually caring about what happens to troops.
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SPC Michael Terrell
Why? Our military no longer depends on massive cannon fodder, and some of the draftees that I served with were less than useless. They were lazy, disruptive and bad for morale.
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Son, if you had been an 11 bravo in Vietnam you might have had a different opinion about phony bone spurs or Rhodes Scholar type of deferments. College deferments were legit, we had no problem with that. I served with a lot of guys that had college and were grunts. (I had some college also). It don't mean nothin, saddle up.
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