Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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I would agree that being drafted was like slavery but disagree that slaves in the nineteenth century escaping to Canada was equivalent to the '60's draft-dodgers going to Canada to avoid the draft. Nineteenth century slaves did not have the "deferments" that could keep them free. They were born into servitude and had no choice other than to escape as best they could. The draft-dodgers of the '60's had many ways to avoid the draft, some honorable, some not. I was drafted in 1963 and did indeed feel that I was a slave while serving at times but am very proud that I did serve, in looking back. I feel nothing but contempt for those who ran to Canada to avoid the draft. Comparing what they did to what actual slaves had to endure is disgusting.
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I don't look down at draft dodgers because their conscience follows the decision they made. It really surprised me to know that celebrities like John Wayne, Marlon Brando or Sylvester Stallone Never Served in the military yet are looked upon by mant as patriots.
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SSG Gerhard S.
SFC James Corona Thank you for your comments. One might suggest that serving in the military is not a prerequisite to patriotism.
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I guess I’m a “Daft Dodger”, because I enlisted to avoid being drafted. That said, a larger issue is Military Service Obligation (MSO). If a male enlists, becomes an officer, or is drafted, he incurs a SIX YEAR MSO (unless “separated for a reason, including a bad conduct discharge, medical separation, etc.). So for SIX YEARS from his Initial Active Duty Date (IADT), he must maintain a relationship with the Department of Defense, either in an active duty, Guard/Reserve, or inactive/Individual Ready Reserve (IRR) capacity, subject to recall at the pleasure and necessity of his branch of service. WOMEN, on the other hand, HAVE NEVER HAD TO REGISTER WITH SELECTIVE SERVICE, CANNOT BE DRAFTED, AND IF THEY ENLIST OR ARE COMMISSIONED, THEY INCUR NO MSO! They can basically “walk” any time the spirit moves them to leave the service! If they want TRUE “EQUAL RIGHTS”, they should have TRUE EQUAL OBLIGATION AND RESPONSIBILITY! They should have to register for Selective Service under the same laws and requirements as men, and incur the SAME MSO!
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SPC Lyle Montgomery
SPC Steve dePinet - We all had a 6 year enlistment I did my 2 years ov active duty most of it in Nam. When I got out in 1971 I didn't have to do any reserve duty other than verifying my adress every 2 years. The local reserves tried to get me to play Army with them but I told them to kiss my ass and nothing became of it. You'd have to understand how us Nam vets felt about the reserves at that time. The Regular Army guys didn't have much respect of the reserves. Now days the reserves and National guard have earned my respect because they are no longer just weekend warriers
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SMSgt Michael Gleason
SPC Lyle Montgomery - A six-year COMMITMENT shouldn't be confused with a "six-year enlistment".
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SPC Lyle Montgomery
SMSgt Michael Gleason - Same thing. Its just nominclature as the Army would say. After combat duty in Nam, all I wanted was out. Durring the 4 years after Nam I played the game and sent my address to the govt. and let them know where I was. and would go back in if I had to. I paid my taxes and was a good citizen. I never wanted to be a lifer. I'm glad that some stayed in but the military life aint for me. I say what I want and if you disagree I could care less.
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SMSgt Michael Gleason
SPC Montgomery - As a Recruiter for 24 years, I can honestly say that "commitment" and "enlistment" are NOT "the same thing". Initially, I enlisted in the Army for two years; with it came a six-year Military Service Obligation (MSO) that COMMITTED me to six years. After ETS-ing at the end of my two-year ENLISTMENT, my MSO COMMITMENT kept me in the (inactive) Army Reserve for four years thereafter.
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Absolutely right , I could not agree more . I consider it ironic too , that the first time America started to draft men on a large scale to fight was during the Civil war . I would have gladly joined the Union Army then and I would have gladly gone to Vietnam though I would have likely been drafted in any case ( by virtue of my birthday I have an extremely low lottery number lol ) , but taking away one's freedom without due process is akin to feudalism and is Un-American.
People have different reasons for wanting to avoid it , or to fight . I love the Vietnamese people and I detest communism , but others might see the war as an excuse to deny them their destiny and self determination . Had Cuba not fallen to communists , I would have supported a true revolution of the Cuban people for democracy.
That being said , I find no fault with most people that avoided service in those wars .
People have different reasons for wanting to avoid it , or to fight . I love the Vietnamese people and I detest communism , but others might see the war as an excuse to deny them their destiny and self determination . Had Cuba not fallen to communists , I would have supported a true revolution of the Cuban people for democracy.
That being said , I find no fault with most people that avoided service in those wars .
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I joined in 1961 a non high school grad because I wanted to be a soldier. I was told to "get a job or go in the Army, so I did. Getting out of North Philadelphia into a structured environment was good for me.
I always believed that draftees should be assigned to CONUS or Europe. Vietnam and Korea should be volunteers only. We had half a million men bumping into each other. I couldn't imagine having Donald Trump as a subordinate.
I always believed that draftees should be assigned to CONUS or Europe. Vietnam and Korea should be volunteers only. We had half a million men bumping into each other. I couldn't imagine having Donald Trump as a subordinate.
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As I read your post, I had a lot of thoughts, and a lot of emotions, because your questions have come up in my own mind.
I'd like to break down your question into three different parts. Slavery, Service versus draft dodger, and holding a grudge.
When you talk about slavery and involuntary servitude, you turned it into an either are. It’s got to be one or the other it's got to be you are a free person or you or a slave.
You make no provisions for something we might call haft free and half Slave. You don’t except the idea that you can be free in many areas and in servitude in others.
Taking a simple example, a Child. Children are free lots of time, but they are forced to go to school. When you say to somebody do your homework or else. When you say to somebody clean up your room or else. Even when you say pick up that piece of paper that you just dropped. Are you turning them into a slave? Or is this a different class not free person but something in between?
Am I a slave because I am forced to pay taxes? Am I a slave because I’m forced to wear clothes? If I am a free person, can I just walked into your house or your business anytime I want? The idea of slave and freedom is much more complicated than just yes or no.
The word “chosen” makes a point of this. You are chosen to be president, that’s a big the honor. But when you are chosen for the draft, it has a different meaning. I have done some research on the town where I live. I discovered back in the 1880s, the city levied a tax on each household to maintain the roads. Although it’s true that if you had the money, you could pay the tax in cash it was expected that you would pay in labor. You would come out for one day or 1/2 a day a month or whatever your tax was and work on the city roads. With these people slaves on that day.
We do not call people in prison slaves, we called them prisoners, because we claim they have broken a law and we are punishing them. Today (2021) the United States have decided it should not require military service. We have in the past and we might in the future. But I argue that this is not the same thing as slavery, is it a tax on ourselves. Now an important here is that a tax must be fair and excepted by the Community. If it's unfair then that’s a whole different problem. But I do not call with slavery.
The word “draft dodger” has taken on a lot of political tones. I have read that certain religious groups like the Quakers were call draft dodgers during the Civil War. We the country, now recognized these religious beliefs as conscientious objectors. When Cassius Clay / Muhammad Ali said that he would not be drafted they called him a draft dodger and put him in jail they took his livelihood away and the courts we're not very sympathetic. It went all the way to the supreme court who found he had truly / just beliefs and that he was a conscientious objector. Even after that they would not give him back his license to fight and his title and even today there are some people to call him a draft dodger. Many people stayed in school during the 60s to avoid the draft it was legal, but not very fair because it required you to have money. In World War II a little more than 50% of all the male in the draft age group served. My father did not. Two reasons kept him out of the war. He had three children, and his job was “vital to national defense. What was his job that was so vital? He ran a garbage company. Yes, garbage companies were exempt from being drafted because they were vital to the national defense. I’m very proud of him for the many things he did his life, but my point is the word draft Dodger becomes very tricky. There are a lot of people me, included that doubt if Donald Trump's leg / foot was really that bad. If he cheated and lied and got him out of the draft that was wrong. But there are so many other things about Donald Trump that I don’t like this one just doesn't make the list.
Now the last part is about holding a grudge. There are a lot of people that during my life with make me angry (I’m 76 so I’ve had lots of time to get mad at people) some did little things that I for gave the next day and some of them did things that were so terrible I will never forgive. But that’s not the same thing as holding a grudge. It just takes too much energy to hold a grudge. Anybody that was 18 or older in 1970 must be an old person today. And I’m tired of being mad at them. If there are bad people, they have certainly done other bad things and send that I can be annoyed with, and if they behave themselves (by my definition) for the last 50+ years did you give him a break if you get it.
I'd like to break down your question into three different parts. Slavery, Service versus draft dodger, and holding a grudge.
When you talk about slavery and involuntary servitude, you turned it into an either are. It’s got to be one or the other it's got to be you are a free person or you or a slave.
You make no provisions for something we might call haft free and half Slave. You don’t except the idea that you can be free in many areas and in servitude in others.
Taking a simple example, a Child. Children are free lots of time, but they are forced to go to school. When you say to somebody do your homework or else. When you say to somebody clean up your room or else. Even when you say pick up that piece of paper that you just dropped. Are you turning them into a slave? Or is this a different class not free person but something in between?
Am I a slave because I am forced to pay taxes? Am I a slave because I’m forced to wear clothes? If I am a free person, can I just walked into your house or your business anytime I want? The idea of slave and freedom is much more complicated than just yes or no.
The word “chosen” makes a point of this. You are chosen to be president, that’s a big the honor. But when you are chosen for the draft, it has a different meaning. I have done some research on the town where I live. I discovered back in the 1880s, the city levied a tax on each household to maintain the roads. Although it’s true that if you had the money, you could pay the tax in cash it was expected that you would pay in labor. You would come out for one day or 1/2 a day a month or whatever your tax was and work on the city roads. With these people slaves on that day.
We do not call people in prison slaves, we called them prisoners, because we claim they have broken a law and we are punishing them. Today (2021) the United States have decided it should not require military service. We have in the past and we might in the future. But I argue that this is not the same thing as slavery, is it a tax on ourselves. Now an important here is that a tax must be fair and excepted by the Community. If it's unfair then that’s a whole different problem. But I do not call with slavery.
The word “draft dodger” has taken on a lot of political tones. I have read that certain religious groups like the Quakers were call draft dodgers during the Civil War. We the country, now recognized these religious beliefs as conscientious objectors. When Cassius Clay / Muhammad Ali said that he would not be drafted they called him a draft dodger and put him in jail they took his livelihood away and the courts we're not very sympathetic. It went all the way to the supreme court who found he had truly / just beliefs and that he was a conscientious objector. Even after that they would not give him back his license to fight and his title and even today there are some people to call him a draft dodger. Many people stayed in school during the 60s to avoid the draft it was legal, but not very fair because it required you to have money. In World War II a little more than 50% of all the male in the draft age group served. My father did not. Two reasons kept him out of the war. He had three children, and his job was “vital to national defense. What was his job that was so vital? He ran a garbage company. Yes, garbage companies were exempt from being drafted because they were vital to the national defense. I’m very proud of him for the many things he did his life, but my point is the word draft Dodger becomes very tricky. There are a lot of people me, included that doubt if Donald Trump's leg / foot was really that bad. If he cheated and lied and got him out of the draft that was wrong. But there are so many other things about Donald Trump that I don’t like this one just doesn't make the list.
Now the last part is about holding a grudge. There are a lot of people that during my life with make me angry (I’m 76 so I’ve had lots of time to get mad at people) some did little things that I for gave the next day and some of them did things that were so terrible I will never forgive. But that’s not the same thing as holding a grudge. It just takes too much energy to hold a grudge. Anybody that was 18 or older in 1970 must be an old person today. And I’m tired of being mad at them. If there are bad people, they have certainly done other bad things and send that I can be annoyed with, and if they behave themselves (by my definition) for the last 50+ years did you give him a break if you get it.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your thoughtful, and comprehensive comments. I agree with some of your points, and disagree with others. I hope soon to be able to respond to your comments more fully. Respectful regards.
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If you used legal deferments, so be it; if you took your coward ass to Canada, you should've been stripped of your citizenship, and put in prison if caught back in
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I volunteered my 22years and I am proud of it.
I think all capable men and women should serve time in the military as others countries do .
I think all capable men and women should serve time in the military as others countries do .
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You make a good argument, but I believe personally that the draft constituted neither servitude or slavery. Yes, while serving, you have very little freedom to dictate the course of your freedom. At least, while serving. How the period of service goes, depends on you. Most will face it with a sense of obligation, do their time and then get out. In my early service, many of my fellow soldiers were draftees and benefitted from early out discharges, ranging from 60 to 90 days. Many of my friends who were draftees in Vietnam, extended their tours, so that upon return to the States, they were discharged rather than be assigned to a Stateside unit. You might ask how long these extensions were, but in reality, not long. After 4 months of Basic and AIT, 12 months in a combat zone, an extension of 90 days would get you out 6-7 months early. Not a bad deal, unless you consider the cons of an extension in a combat zone and your given profession. A gamble for an infantryman. But, if you want to consider the draft as involuntary servitude, or slavery, I'd say your assessment is naive. One, you weren't drafted, you volunteered during a time of only volunteers, therefore not understanding the pressure on young potential draftees. To give free passage to those that dodged the draft is also naive in thought, because it is cowardly and takes advantage of the liberties that are inherent to our great land. I've known many that either went to Canada or deserted after being drafted. I have little regard for these cowards, and furthermore detest the actions of both Presidents Ford and Carter to welcome back into the fold both categories. President Ford had a son who dodged the draft. Various presidents have had many who considered them draft dodgers. Clinton was one in fact. You can research it yourself. He had orders to report for duty, while at the same time attended school in the UK as a Rhodes Scholar. A lawyer petitioned for his deferment, but by the time the case got anywhere, he was scot free. Okay, Trump didn't serve, but neither did Obama or Biden. Bush served in the Air Guard with a lackluster career, but he at least served. But as many others who've answered your request for input, I detest the dodgers and deserters. They've taken advantage of their liberties and rights and feel no sense of obligation, whereas millions of others at least showed up. These are my feelings, but at least I showed up when I could have skipped.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for respectfully sharing your thoughts, experiences, and opinions on this issue.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your comment. One wonders though, would you also suggest any who avoid being enslaved, or placed in servitude by their government are likewise "cowards"? Were African American Slaves who fled the American South prior to the War between the States, for freedom in Canada, also "cowards"? Honest questions.
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