Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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In 1962 I volunteered for four years in the Corps to protect the right of others to not serve. I did not enlist to help the government abuse, other foreign people although unwittingly I did in Vietnam. I believed General Walt when he told our squadron the government lies that we were there to fight communism and prevent the domino effect from occurring in Southeast Asia. I believed we were there to do that. I don't today.
Under the old natural or common law, the government could not compel anyone to do anything against their will -- PERIOD. That is what true freedom is. We no longer live under the common law. We live in the age of statutes where politicians decide what is illegal by decree. Consequently, using political pressure busybodies can get legislators to pass laws to compel others to act like the busybodies want them to act i.e., a person cannot self-medicate with drugs voluntarily; everyone has to have the government's permission to drink alcoholic beverages or to smoke cigarettes and we have to have government permission to live in our homes.
The writer is mistaken about America being the home of the free. We are not free people. We haven't been free since Lincoln's War of Northern Aggression against the South. Lincoln's government forced men to serve in the Army in direct violation of the common law embodied in our Constitution. That wasn't freedom. The IRS steals half of our income. That isn't freedom. The NSA snoops on all if our communication and keeps it on record. That's not freedom. We can't travel by air without our baggage and bodies being searched at the airport by criminal government TSA goons with badges parading as our protectors. That isn't freedom. We can't carry defensive sidearms or other firearms interstate without some bureaucrat's permission or fear of arrest. That isn't freedom. A business cannot open without reams of government paperwork. That's not freedom.
In a truly free society, no one has to ask the government's permission to do anything. Thomas Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence: "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..." The government is instituted by us as our agent and as such, it cannot act to harm its masters We the People and that's even in the Uniform Commercial Code.
Under the old natural or common law, the government could not compel anyone to do anything against their will -- PERIOD. That is what true freedom is. We no longer live under the common law. We live in the age of statutes where politicians decide what is illegal by decree. Consequently, using political pressure busybodies can get legislators to pass laws to compel others to act like the busybodies want them to act i.e., a person cannot self-medicate with drugs voluntarily; everyone has to have the government's permission to drink alcoholic beverages or to smoke cigarettes and we have to have government permission to live in our homes.
The writer is mistaken about America being the home of the free. We are not free people. We haven't been free since Lincoln's War of Northern Aggression against the South. Lincoln's government forced men to serve in the Army in direct violation of the common law embodied in our Constitution. That wasn't freedom. The IRS steals half of our income. That isn't freedom. The NSA snoops on all if our communication and keeps it on record. That's not freedom. We can't travel by air without our baggage and bodies being searched at the airport by criminal government TSA goons with badges parading as our protectors. That isn't freedom. We can't carry defensive sidearms or other firearms interstate without some bureaucrat's permission or fear of arrest. That isn't freedom. A business cannot open without reams of government paperwork. That's not freedom.
In a truly free society, no one has to ask the government's permission to do anything. Thomas Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence: "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..." The government is instituted by us as our agent and as such, it cannot act to harm its masters We the People and that's even in the Uniform Commercial Code.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your comments. For the record, I agree with your thoughts on the matter. We have become far less free, as our government has expanded it's power, at the expense of our liberties, since our founding.
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That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought out objection..... OVER RULED!
You say America has never had a shortage of volunteers. Every year you can't even find enough poll workers with a search warrant and they get paid.
You don't want someone fighting next to you who didn't volunteer? I can't believe I read that! I welcome ANY ALLY to join me in a foxhole, don't care how you got there. Regardless of his journey there, believe me when I say love of country & service goes out the window when you're fighting to save your ass. I would have thought you would have learned that in Iraq.
I'm one who was drafted and one that learned lessons from the Marine Corps that have served me well throughout my 48 years since my Honorable Discharge. I can't say I wanted to go, but felt it was my duty to go. Legal deferments I have no problem with. Cowards that ran to Canada deserve no respect in that regard.
You say America has never had a shortage of volunteers. Every year you can't even find enough poll workers with a search warrant and they get paid.
You don't want someone fighting next to you who didn't volunteer? I can't believe I read that! I welcome ANY ALLY to join me in a foxhole, don't care how you got there. Regardless of his journey there, believe me when I say love of country & service goes out the window when you're fighting to save your ass. I would have thought you would have learned that in Iraq.
I'm one who was drafted and one that learned lessons from the Marine Corps that have served me well throughout my 48 years since my Honorable Discharge. I can't say I wanted to go, but felt it was my duty to go. Legal deferments I have no problem with. Cowards that ran to Canada deserve no respect in that regard.
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SSG Gerhard S.
First of all, thank you for reading, and commenting. That being said... I said if the danger is real, and the cause is just, I suspect there will be no shortage of volunteers. Respectfully, your poll worker analogy really doesn't fit.
Secondly, I didn't say I didn't want draftees fighting best to me. I said I'd rather have volunteers fighting next to me. It seems you see what you want to see. I made clear I have no animosity toward draftees. My animosity is to a government that forces servitude on its own people. Respect and thanks to you for serving Sir.
Regards.
Secondly, I didn't say I didn't want draftees fighting best to me. I said I'd rather have volunteers fighting next to me. It seems you see what you want to see. I made clear I have no animosity toward draftees. My animosity is to a government that forces servitude on its own people. Respect and thanks to you for serving Sir.
Regards.
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I wasn't around for Vietnam. But you vote with your body. Just as in the Civil Rights Movement, people protested knowing what would happen to them. You have my respect for standing your ground, and I wouldn't want someone forced to be there covering me. So it was a win-win imo. But to the men who went even if they didn't want to, you have more than my respect, you have my thanks, because THAT. takes even greater courage.
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I am going to respond to this with a personal anecdote - My father, a Korean war veteran, and my Oldest brother. My Father, quite voicefully, opposed America's involvement in what he originally called "A French Problem" and was seriously considering Immigrating to Canada so his Oldest son was not drafted. Given his personal experience (He was a Marine at the Inchon Landing), he did not want his son to have the same or similar experiences that he did in what would amount to being against his will. Bottom line up front, Drafting, or conscription, is being forcefully pressed into service against one's will. There are times when such a thing is needed, Vietnam was not one of them.
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I enlisted during Vietnam, served 20+ years. The points you make are very valid. Not everyone is military material. Service to your country should be voluntary always. There organizations like the peace corps and other groups trying to do good.
I saw the draft, I prefer the all volunteer force. I want someone that is there because they want to be. I have also seen the results of people joining then crying to get out because they couldn't take the discipline required to be a capable members.
Good article!
I saw the draft, I prefer the all volunteer force. I want someone that is there because they want to be. I have also seen the results of people joining then crying to get out because they couldn't take the discipline required to be a capable members.
Good article!
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I have my feelings for sure on this subject matter. My fist's really get curled up when someone has the nerve to "brag" to me how they got out of going in and that's by lying about their sexuality....They would say "oh I just told the recruiter I was a homosexual" and then laugh about it....It takes very once of my being to not bunch them out....That to me is a true coward. And to use that as an excuse is just wow.....I think every kid who doesn't have any plans after HS should serve. Provided they are of sound mind and health of course. Just my two cents here.
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I've changed my mind on this. At the time, I felt like they were all cowards for running and should suffer the consequences. I now believe no politician should have the ability to take young people by force and throw their lives away in a foreign war. If the US is invaded or to protect from invasion, by all means have a draft. We really should do what Switzerland does, make everyone do their two years of military training, but EVERYONE. No rich kids getting deferments for college. No religious exemption, either, if they won't do combat, make them be medics. By "rich kids" I mean anyone who can afford college, and if you don't understand why I say that, you don't know what it is to be poor.
I went the other way, my draft number was so high I'd never have went, but my future absent the military was flipping burgers or pumping gas. I no longer feel it cowardly to leave the country to avoid the draft under the circumstances of Vietnam or even Korea. WWII was different, we had been attacked.
Unrelated, but stirred up by the memories, I'm still waiting for Hanoi Jane to die so I can go piss on her grave. Anyone else feel that way?
I went the other way, my draft number was so high I'd never have went, but my future absent the military was flipping burgers or pumping gas. I no longer feel it cowardly to leave the country to avoid the draft under the circumstances of Vietnam or even Korea. WWII was different, we had been attacked.
Unrelated, but stirred up by the memories, I'm still waiting for Hanoi Jane to die so I can go piss on her grave. Anyone else feel that way?
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SGT(P) (Join to see)
If the US was ever invaded, and a draft was needed because not enough people volunteered, that would say an awful lot about how little some Americans cared for their freedoms and their country.
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Your point is well taken, SSG Gerhard Seidel. I don't have a problem with those who never served, but what really ticks me off are those "chickenhawks" who deliberately avoided military service, but love to get excited about waging war, killing in the name of patriotism, and all kinds of macho BS. The worst offenders are the politicians who refused to go when called up, but are eager to start a war and send others to do the fighting.
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He received a 1-Y medical deferment for heel spurs in 1968, after going to a private doctor and obtaining a letter describing the diagnosis. He's refused to provide a copy of that letter, identify the doctor who provided it,or indicate which heel in question was the bad one. It's funny though, that his diagnosis was severe enough to prevent being drafted, yet according to him, it was only a temporary and minor condition that cleared up relatively soon.
*However*, he's far from the first president to escape service in Vietnam. George Bush Jr. got to serve stateside in the Air National Guard, never deploying overseas, and Bill Clinton pulled connections with someone in ROTC to get away from the draft allegedly. Overall, he did things legally it would appear, and with his high draft number it would be unlikely he would have been drafted regardless. I don't like President Trump, but I'm neutral on this issue in particular.
*However*, he's far from the first president to escape service in Vietnam. George Bush Jr. got to serve stateside in the Air National Guard, never deploying overseas, and Bill Clinton pulled connections with someone in ROTC to get away from the draft allegedly. Overall, he did things legally it would appear, and with his high draft number it would be unlikely he would have been drafted regardless. I don't like President Trump, but I'm neutral on this issue in particular.
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For a very long time I thought that dodging the draft was unforgivable. But the older I got and the more I looked at it from a different perspective I came to realize that it wasn't truly an act of cowardness but one of conscience. I volunteered for the military but that was my choice. During basic training we had a lot of draftees who eventually went to 11B school then deployed to Nam. They didn't want to be there anymore than the regulars but the did their jobs. The ones who left the country were those who believed that the U.S. Government was intruding on their lives. That is protected against in the amendments to the Constitution. And because we are soldier who took an oath to "defend the Constitution" we should look reasonably upon the actions of those who dodged the draft. Some fled the country, others used college deferments. But what has happened to those people? Did they enter into alternative government service? Are they contributing members of society? Or are they the "down and outers" who are homeless like many of our Veterans? Those who chose not to serve had that right and I believe that we were given the power of free will and choice to discern what to do in this life. So in conclusion, I have nothing to forgive them for as it is not my place to judge another person as I do not know their hearts, minds or motives.
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