Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Vietnam War
Vietnam
Donald Trump
Military service
Service
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
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I have a high school classmate who bragged about getting out of the draft by marrying his high school sweetheart. I decided that at our 50th high school reunion that I was going to wear my dress blues. My original set had shrunk in the closet. How do clothes shrink in a closet?? :-) I bought a new set and everything that I needed. Went to the reunion and the girls who avoided me in high school, I was now their hero. Made me feel better. If a guy didn't get drafted for some medical issue, I just go on in life. It's the guy who brags that irritates me. The Army changed me for the better. BTW I was drafted with a heart murmur. The induction doctor agreed that I have a heart murmur. :-) Still have the murmur.
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I was at a Cigar store in Columbus, Ohio a number of years ago, talking to a Vietnam Vet about the merits of Universal Conscription. I argued that unless everyone served, the burden of freedom would be unequally born by the less privileged, leading to a classist society. He referred me to Robert Henlieinn's book "Starship Troopers." In the book the premise of "Franchise," for service is explained far better than in the movie. Franchise means full citizenship priveleldges. Those who served, have earned privileges which are unavailable to those who have not paid the price (whether in wartime or not). I just began reading the book again the other night (after my wife and I had a debate about why none of our children had served (save a son-in-law)). I think it a sound incentive, and a means to ensure that those who are calling the shots are invested, having paid their dues in advance.
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SSG Gerhard S.
MAJ Mark Steskal , I'm aware of Robert Heinlines franchise argument. Though the premise is sound, in practice we run into problems. This author, for example was largely Libertarian ideologically speaking. But requiring service as a prerequisite to vote would lead to a bloated, overly expensive make-work government, full of people checking their box to get the benefits of voting. Also one wonders if only those who served can vote, then what is to stop those who served from electing only others who served, who will then pass laws that benefit only those who've served? Just done thoughts on this particular issue.
Thank you for bringing this perspective to the discussion.
Thank you for bringing this perspective to the discussion.
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SPC John Tacetta
SSG Gerhard S. - You're looking into Heinlein's premise too shallowly and missed a section of the book. You could not accede to a leadership position without first attaining your franchise. Hence, all leaders in that scenario were, by default, veterans of one form or another. Moreover, I don't see how implementing such a strategy would of necessity "bloat" the Bureaucracy. You might have to work on that.
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Why would we be upset with people who avoided serving in a war that had nothing to do with national defense, nothing to do with safeguarding freedom for the United States, and was started by our own government lying to us? I say pardon the lot of them. It was morally right to resist the draft. It will always be morally right to resist the draft so long as we have a government that can't be trusted.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Excellent points, thank you for taking the time to read the post and for your thoughtful response
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I appreciate your objective approach to this topic.
When it comes to evaluating matching circumstances, I think folks are more likely to make excuses for those that they favor, while demonizing those they don't. Heck, on RP, even the hallowed veteran status isn't even enough to protect someone's military reputation from other servicemembers/veterans, if they hold different political views.
Unfortunately, being objective about topics of this type is difficult, because military folk tend be very biased because they were either drafted themselves or volunteered. Personally, regardless of their motivation for volunteering (unless they are an inside threat) I would much prefer to serve with other volunteers.
When it comes to evaluating matching circumstances, I think folks are more likely to make excuses for those that they favor, while demonizing those they don't. Heck, on RP, even the hallowed veteran status isn't even enough to protect someone's military reputation from other servicemembers/veterans, if they hold different political views.
Unfortunately, being objective about topics of this type is difficult, because military folk tend be very biased because they were either drafted themselves or volunteered. Personally, regardless of their motivation for volunteering (unless they are an inside threat) I would much prefer to serve with other volunteers.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for the compliment regarding being objective. For the record, I too chose to volunteer, and am glad I did. The decisions you, I, and others made, were OUR decisions to make, and others decisions should be theirs to make. Ones future should not lie in the hands of disinterested politicians, let alone the futures of Millions.
Respectful regards.
Respectful regards.
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My only contention with draft dodgers are the ones who advocate for the U.S. military to engage in more undeclared wars like Vietnam. If you were eligible but weren't willing to risk your life to fight in a place like Vietnam, it's hypocritical to be asking today's young adults to do what you weren't willing to do when you were their age.
I'm opposed to the draft as I don't think the government should have the power to coerce you into servitude. If there aren't enough volunteers to fight in a war, it's probably a war only the politicians but not the people want to fight. I think the vast majority of Americans would be willing to fight if it means defending our homeland, but not to fight in a war that has nothing to do with our national security.
I'm opposed to the draft as I don't think the government should have the power to coerce you into servitude. If there aren't enough volunteers to fight in a war, it's probably a war only the politicians but not the people want to fight. I think the vast majority of Americans would be willing to fight if it means defending our homeland, but not to fight in a war that has nothing to do with our national security.
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As for me... I'm not upset with draft dodgers, but neither do I respect or like them. From my point of view, anybody who willingly accepts the benefits of a free society but is not willing to defend it is a potential scoundrel, coward and cad.
I will not go out of my way to make life hard for such a person but I sure would not trust them with anything important. They have already proven they are more concerned about themselves than anyone else.
I suppose this is the way I feel: the right or wrong of the conflict is not the question. Rather, it's a question of selflessness. To my mind, someone who dodged the draft is like that "friend" who picks a fight in a bar but who buggers off and leaves you hanging when the fists start to fly. Not cool.
There are lots of selfish people in the world and, as a Christian, I love them all. But do I "like" them -- not usually, no.
I will not go out of my way to make life hard for such a person but I sure would not trust them with anything important. They have already proven they are more concerned about themselves than anyone else.
I suppose this is the way I feel: the right or wrong of the conflict is not the question. Rather, it's a question of selflessness. To my mind, someone who dodged the draft is like that "friend" who picks a fight in a bar but who buggers off and leaves you hanging when the fists start to fly. Not cool.
There are lots of selfish people in the world and, as a Christian, I love them all. But do I "like" them -- not usually, no.
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Look up Sen. Blumenthal's record, he had something like 5 deferments then lied about his service.
I was a draft dodger, I enlisted...
I was a draft dodger, I enlisted...
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Why can't this be put to rest? Doing two tours and coming home I did not care what others believed or did! I went on to spend 28 years in the MANG. I helped kids fix and fly as crewmembers in HUEYS and CHINOOKS. They did not know what the DRAFT was and we left it at that, give it up, move on.
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It’s important to remember context. Many people received deferments for education or medical reasons during Vietnam, and the rules at the time allowed it. Labeling someone solely as a “draft dodger” oversimplifies a complex situation. We can honor those who served without unfairly judging everyone who didn’t.
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Thank you for the excellent post. I find the differing opinions fascinating. It will take me a while to read all of them, but I am committed to going through each one, along with the responses from those who shared their views.
I believe that if a draft is necessary, those drafted should only be required to serve in non-combat positions. Many important roles that do not involve combat contribute significantly to the success of our objectives.
The age of those drafted should be over 25 for combat roles and 18 for non-combat jobs.
Those making these decisions are mostly political and lack awareness. They remind me of children on a playground.
I believe that if a draft is necessary, those drafted should only be required to serve in non-combat positions. Many important roles that do not involve combat contribute significantly to the success of our objectives.
The age of those drafted should be over 25 for combat roles and 18 for non-combat jobs.
Those making these decisions are mostly political and lack awareness. They remind me of children on a playground.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Thank you for your service, and for taking the time to read, and to comment on this issue. It's clear you've given this subject a great amount of thought.
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