Posted on Jul 19, 2018
Should We Be Upset At Those Who “Dodged The Draft”?
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I’ve seen a number of posts elsewhere provocatively calling President Trump a “draft dodger” for utilizing three educational deferments and one medical exclusion during Vietnam. I know this can be a sensitive issue for many of us who have served. Many of my military friends seem to want to pile on, and comment with disdain over his actions, and this issue. Some of this is just politics, for others it’s more personal.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
I’d like to present a position here that may be unpopular with some. As a freedom loving American who voluntarily served in the US Army and Michigan National Guard for 22 years, including a tour in Iraq (2004-2005), I am thankful that I’ve never had to contend with an active draft. Most of us here have served in the military. Most of us served voluntarily; some were forced to “serve”. I’ve heard some who were conscripted say they are thankful they ended up in the military, or that they were thinking about volunteering anyway. I’ve also heard some say it was the worst thing that’s ever happened to them. There are still others who can’t comment because they didn’t make it back alive.
Most of us who joined the military will tell you they served to protect the freedom that is America, and we DO enjoy a great many freedoms that people in other countries do not. Now for the controversy. Can we include a draft as one of those freedoms? I contend we cannot. I’ve heard arguments for the utility, and necessity of a draft to fight our wars. But what is a draft when we REALLY take time to consider its nature. I’d like to place two definitions below to set the premise that guides my thinking on this issue. (I always use Merriam Webster for consistency’s sake.)
Servitude: “a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.”
Slavery: “a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence“
Given these two definitions, it’s hard to argue that a draft doesn’t, at best fit the first definition, and at worst the second. When confronted with being drafted, we are given a “choice” either go to war, put your life in danger and do what you’re told, or go to jail. It’s a false choice, because either way you lose the choice to determine your life’s course of action, or you become a slave to the prison system. When I’ve made this argument, the replies, and questions seem to indicate that it’s ok to draft people for a host of reasons, and I have a host of reasons in disagreement.
“It’s a price we have to pay to live in a free country.”
Are we really free if our government can place us into servitude, or slavery without due process?
“Other countries do it.”
We’re not other countries. We’re America, and we abolished servitude, and slavery over 150 years ago. Why would we want to resurrect slavery to fight wars?
“How can we count on volunteers to enlist in great enough numbers to fight our wars?”
How about we offer commensurate pay and benefits that will draw enough citizens to volunteer? If that doesn’t work, perhaps our government should re-think the necessity of that particular engagement.
“What if we’re invaded or we’re needed to fight a great injustice somewhere else?”
If we’re invaded, one suspects there’ll be no shortage of volunteers, civilian, or military. If the cause is just, and the danger real, America has never had a shortage of volunteers.
“Don’t you find it dishonest to use deferrals, or medical exemptions to avoid the draft when others didn’t do so?”
Those deferrals, and exemptions were legal, weren’t they? Would you call taking your mortgage interest deduction, or other legal deductions to lower your tax liability as dishonest?
All of these questions, and answers, are ancillary though, because these questions ALL avoid, bypass, or totally ignore the basic premise that a draft is based upon involuntary servitude at best, and slavery at worst. So, when someone gets all up in arms about President Trump, or anybody else “dodging the draft” by taking legal deferrals, I say, “I don’t blame them”. I tell them I didn’t blame President Clinton for avoiding the draft, and I don’t blame President Trump either. My support of President Clinton in this regard back in the 1990’s certainly caused some consternation among my Republican friends. It’s the price one pays for being philosophically honest, and consistent. Some have asked, about those who fled the country to Canada to avoid the draft, while others went along with it and were deployed to Vietnam. My answer is that I didn’t blame black slaves from fleeing slavery to Canada in the 19th century nor do I blame anybody else for fleeing to Canada to escape our slavery of the Vietnam era.
I understand that the military isn’t for everybody, and we don’t want just anybody fighting next to us. I want people fighting next to me who volunteered. Someone who has that special love of country, of service, and of unit that promotes an effective force.
In summary, I start from the basic premise that a draft is involuntary servitude/slavery, and therefore I can’t blame anybody for avoiding such bonds, either within the system of deferments, and exemptions, or outside the system by fleeing the country. America is a great country because we did away with things like slavery and spearheaded the concept of economic and individual liberty. These concepts led to the greatest worldwide advancements of production, technology and efficiency ever known previous to the founding of our great nation.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts, comments, or questions on this issue.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 705
I served during the trasisson to the voluntary army , I served with draftees , I can honestly say most were ok , but those who really did not want to be there were a thorn in the side of the platoon . Who wants to have to rely on a person who dose not want to be there ? you wind up doing your job and theirs .
The draft is obsolete , lets just not allow our government to get us into a situation that requires massive amount of bodies for the meat grinder. I much rather server with people that want to be there .
The draft is obsolete , lets just not allow our government to get us into a situation that requires massive amount of bodies for the meat grinder. I much rather server with people that want to be there .
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That is well thought out and well written. It is correct that a draft is involuntary servitude, a thing we fought an internal war to rid ourselves of. Why would you want anyone other than a volunteer in the foxhole with you?
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Interesting Subject, But This Articles About 6 Years Older Than Dirt,
06/19/2018
06/19/2018
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SSG Gerhard S.
Yes, the article has been around for 6 years, but apparently, some people are still interested in its content. Respectful regards.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
I'd Posted Previously, Probably About A Year Ago Or More,
I've Read Posts Repeatedly, Over 10 Years Old, While Others
Can't Be Found The Following Day. ~ But I Agree This This Guy Too:
~~~ CSM Jim Corrin~~
"Look up Sen. Blumenthal's record, he had something like 5 deferments then lied about his service. I was a draft dodger, I enlisted...
~
~ I Did The Same ~~ ON My 17th Birthday~
When I Completed MY 4 Year Enlistment, With A 10 Day "Early Out',
I Had Too Wait 19 Days Before I Was legally Allowed To Buy a Beer
.
I've Read Posts Repeatedly, Over 10 Years Old, While Others
Can't Be Found The Following Day. ~ But I Agree This This Guy Too:
~~~ CSM Jim Corrin~~
"Look up Sen. Blumenthal's record, he had something like 5 deferments then lied about his service. I was a draft dodger, I enlisted...
~
~ I Did The Same ~~ ON My 17th Birthday~
When I Completed MY 4 Year Enlistment, With A 10 Day "Early Out',
I Had Too Wait 19 Days Before I Was legally Allowed To Buy a Beer
.
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AMAZING: Absolutely Amazing.
SO Stupid The Question, And It's NOT Even From The Bee..
"UPSET"? Was I "Upset"?
How's The Words "Pizzed-OFF" Grab Ya?
SO Stupid The Question, And It's NOT Even From The Bee..
"UPSET"? Was I "Upset"?
How's The Words "Pizzed-OFF" Grab Ya?
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
SSG Gerhard S. -
Which "One"? (:-)>
I Read The Entire Article; Some Of It Twice Or More, To Help Being Certain Of What I'd Read......I Served USAF 06/29/1961 (my 17th Birthday) Through 06/10/1965
Vietnam Era ~ Cold War ~ Cuban Crisis ~ Assassination Of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.....
I Just Read Your Bio ~ Nice Records. I Came To Vegas From Lansing, Michigan.
27 Years In Business, ~ Small Printing Business In East Lansing, Lansing & Mt. Pleasant.~ Sold Them Off, Grabbed The Cash & Made The Escape....
I "Hit The Road Jack, And Didn't Go Back No more, No More...."
Which "One"? (:-)>
I Read The Entire Article; Some Of It Twice Or More, To Help Being Certain Of What I'd Read......I Served USAF 06/29/1961 (my 17th Birthday) Through 06/10/1965
Vietnam Era ~ Cold War ~ Cuban Crisis ~ Assassination Of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.....
I Just Read Your Bio ~ Nice Records. I Came To Vegas From Lansing, Michigan.
27 Years In Business, ~ Small Printing Business In East Lansing, Lansing & Mt. Pleasant.~ Sold Them Off, Grabbed The Cash & Made The Escape....
I "Hit The Road Jack, And Didn't Go Back No more, No More...."
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Always remember that our last President Donald (Adulterer) TRUMP evaded the draft with a BOGUS heel spur medical excuse ( NO X-rays taken) from his personal Doctor, yet he can walk on an Eighteen (18) Hole Golf course with no problems. If you think this is honorable he called Nam Vets "SUCKERS".
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SSG Gerhard S.
SP5 Delphis Kaczowski of course not. I would call them victims of slavery, and as stated in the article, I don't blame anyone for doing whatever they can to avoid, or escape slavery.
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SP5 Delphis Kaczowski
SSG Gerhard S. - Those cotton fields were in the South & owned by WHITES who were never punished for KIDNAPPING. Want more? Were these Land Barons Republicans? The party of Lincoln is a sick JOKE.
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SSG Gerhard S.
SP5 Delphis Kaczowski unless you wish to quote what I wrote in the article with which you take contention, you may as well be arguing with yourself. I honestly don't know what you're talking about, and this post was not about politics, so I don't know where you're even getting this from. Please state your case, with context and I'll be happy to engage, so long as it's related to the article. Respectful regards.
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SP5 Delphis Kaczowski
SP5 Delphis Kaczowski - We are ALL immigrants (except Native American Indians) including The Trump family from Germany (The "Fatherland")=Deutschland.
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1. "Draft dodgers" were young men who fled the country without any attempt at getting a legal deferment I was around at the time.
2. I am absolutely fed up with commenters on all forums who single out one individual for getting a deferment. Bill Clinton got a deferment. Hillary failed to volunteer, and I mention that as a second generation woman veteran. Biden did not serve. Obama did not serve. Yet, one man is singled out.
3. Your thread is about the draft. It was not fairly applied. Among other wrongs, it gutted the African American community, taking healthy young men who would have formed families and been stabilizing influence. My sex was altogether exempt. I enlisted as a volunteer.. It is, however, not slavery. Conscription has been imposed for some tome. I would have to look it up. It's up to leadership at all levels to keep personnel in line.
2. I am absolutely fed up with commenters on all forums who single out one individual for getting a deferment. Bill Clinton got a deferment. Hillary failed to volunteer, and I mention that as a second generation woman veteran. Biden did not serve. Obama did not serve. Yet, one man is singled out.
3. Your thread is about the draft. It was not fairly applied. Among other wrongs, it gutted the African American community, taking healthy young men who would have formed families and been stabilizing influence. My sex was altogether exempt. I enlisted as a volunteer.. It is, however, not slavery. Conscription has been imposed for some tome. I would have to look it up. It's up to leadership at all levels to keep personnel in line.
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SP5 Delphis Kaczowski
Wait until Trump finds out that Ms. Harris is married to a Jewish husband (Doug Ethamp).
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SrA Cecelia Eareckson
SP5 Delphis Kaczowski - Be ridiculous. It was over two decades ago. And I didn't need any note for work.
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I am one of those who consider Trump, Biden and Clinton to be draft dodgers. I do not have an issue with education defernments. After all they were just deferments. Many men having completed their education went on to serve and some died in Vietnam. However Clinton did not have any legitimate reason to avoid serving. He played the system.
Both Trump and Biden after they used their 2-S status found alleged medical reasons for deferments. I don't know if Trump's "bone Spurs" were real or not or if they were serious enough to make him ineligble to be useful in some non combat MOS. It certainly has not impacted his ability to play golf. I also object to an individual who having found a way to avoid service himself makes remarks about those who did serve. Refering to them as suckers or losers. He attacks real American patriots like John McCain, Generals Kelly, Milley or Mattis in disrespectful terms while supporting others who attacked the congress as patriots. Men who served the nation for decades.
As for Biden I have not much to say except that his aleged Asthma didn't keep him from participating in sports in HS and college.
Both Trump and Biden after they used their 2-S status found alleged medical reasons for deferments. I don't know if Trump's "bone Spurs" were real or not or if they were serious enough to make him ineligble to be useful in some non combat MOS. It certainly has not impacted his ability to play golf. I also object to an individual who having found a way to avoid service himself makes remarks about those who did serve. Refering to them as suckers or losers. He attacks real American patriots like John McCain, Generals Kelly, Milley or Mattis in disrespectful terms while supporting others who attacked the congress as patriots. Men who served the nation for decades.
As for Biden I have not much to say except that his aleged Asthma didn't keep him from participating in sports in HS and college.
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Sgt Michael Clifford
SrA Cecelia Eareckson - Hillary fails for a lot of reasons.
The onl reason Trump won in 2016 was because more voters had no use for another Clinton than disliked Trump.
The onl reason Trump won in 2016 was because more voters had no use for another Clinton than disliked Trump.
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SrA Cecelia Eareckson
SP5 Delphis Kaczowski - As a second genneration woman veteran, I am fine with that. I separated a few months early to care for my mother, and was classified 4-A. At 71 yo, I could do some filing if recalled. I do not believe women belong in combat, or elite units. Happy?
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SP5 Delphis Kaczowski
I guess you are saying that you will send your sons to war, but NOT your daughters. If Republicans draft women for the next conflict, do you think the pregnancy rates will go sky high? EQUAL means in everything in our Constitution. Women fought to have the right to VOTE, now let women protect that right, because dictators (like DJT) will take it away. Remember who took away your reproductive rights because more is coming.
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SrA Cecelia Eareckson
If you can find any mention of terminating pregnancy in the Constitution, do please let me know. The utterly disgusting part is that women now have many options to PREVENT pregnancy. That was not the case whe Roe v Wade ruling was issued. I was around at the time.
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The draft system when I was drafted in 1968 was a corrupt institution It was applied without any real transparency and families with influence did get their sons exempted I had a college deferment and I did not view that as draft dodging
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SP5 Delphis Kaczowski
Sgt Michael Clifford - Watch what happens right before your eyes. Only this time the Republicans want to draft WOMEN into the Military. Do you know how to spot a Pathological Liar???? Go watch FOX News & Hannity. How many on that show have been convicted & sentenced along with the New York Felon who is hoping his corrupt Supreme Court Nominees help him.
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SP5 Larry Boggs
I am well aware that there is no draft that why my I said When I was drafted that m’s past thence say nothing about now
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Your arguments could be used for being forced to pay taxes, in a way, and this country rebelled over taxes.
I chose to serve and would do so again and I never really thought about draft dodgers. I honestly never cared. The only times I did not look favorably on draft dodgers of the past was when they bragged about it, bragged about being Jody because they dodged the draft, and did so illegally.
Now, let's bring to modern times.
People voted for the current administration and for policies that support intervention into international conflicts. I would think the worst of those particular voters if they then decided to dodge the draft because they did not want to do the fighting, but rathered someone else fight for a war they supported.
To those that voted against foreign wars? I can respect them because they stuck to their beliefs. I have also begun to view "draft dodging" as a way for these voters to say "fuck you" to the pro war politicians and government.
To each their own. But I'll be honest with my snap decision. Being a draft dodger is nothing to be proud of.
I chose to serve and would do so again and I never really thought about draft dodgers. I honestly never cared. The only times I did not look favorably on draft dodgers of the past was when they bragged about it, bragged about being Jody because they dodged the draft, and did so illegally.
Now, let's bring to modern times.
People voted for the current administration and for policies that support intervention into international conflicts. I would think the worst of those particular voters if they then decided to dodge the draft because they did not want to do the fighting, but rathered someone else fight for a war they supported.
To those that voted against foreign wars? I can respect them because they stuck to their beliefs. I have also begun to view "draft dodging" as a way for these voters to say "fuck you" to the pro war politicians and government.
To each their own. But I'll be honest with my snap decision. Being a draft dodger is nothing to be proud of.
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