Transgender Service Members: Serving in Silence

PO1: it's the ever popular gay apologist "you're secretly gay" meme. If any of us heterosexual "breeders" dare to say that we find homosexuality distasteful or incompatible with our morals, then it "must" be because we're hiding a desire for gay sex. it's intended to shock and embarass you, and put you on the defensive, which makes you seem like you are hiding something.
SPC mulder:this is an old tactic, and it works much better in person.

Biologically, the suffix -phobia doesn't necessarily indicate a fear, but rather an aversion or dislike. It can also refer to a hate. It may seem an affront to your pride to be called "homophobic" because it implies you are afraid, but based on your comments, you described yourself as meeting the definition.
I've had to shower with gay people while in the army, and no, it didn't cause any confusion, nobody was screwed up, and miraculously, nobody was hurt. Somehow it seems that gay people and most straight people want to mind their own business and not worry about what someone does with their personal life when if affects nobody else around them. I'd really like to believe those who say they don't "fear" being around gay people, but why are you afraid?

So out of curiosity, and this is only mildly related to the discussion at hand...

How many people here will say something like "I can't stand to see two men kiss" or variations on that theme, but then have no issue with girl-on-girl physical interactions? Because that's just as gay, to bend a hackneyed quip to my own will.

I don't see any reason why this continues to be a big deal. The military has been given its marching orders with regards to gays serving openly. And prior to that, before it was accepted to be out, all of us served with gay people. We served with them in our permanent duty stations, we served with them in training, and we served with them in Basic/boot -- I don't know about any other branch of service, but when I took a shower in Basic, it was in a single large room with a bunch of other dudes. Oh look, we accomplished our mission! So yeah: I showered with gay men, and the military is still the same ol' ass-kicking machine.

Just remember one thing, those marching orders were unlawful since the violated the UCMJ! I don't know if the UCMJ was ever changed or not, nor do I really care since I am out. But when the CIC disrespects everything military and its laws, we are a broken machine!

CPT Michael Barden, I don't know, Sir. I guess, if I ever face her, I'll do my utmost as a leader to treat her with respect and compassion. If you are in this position, what would you do? I mean no disrespect. Maybe you have dealt with this conundrum before. If not, what would be your COA, so that I might learn?

CPT Michael Barden, I would refer to them by their "claimed gender" because I don't believe in causing a person more undue psychological pain.
Bradley Manning, I just refer to as an traitor.
If they were seeking to transition, while in service, I agree with you COA. My reasons are based on the interests of the military, in time and expense of procedure. I can't comment on what their options should be if trying to re-enter the military as another gender, though. That is where the questions arise regarding new PT standards, etc.
I think on much of this, we'll just have to agree to disagree, Sir. Thanks for your input and time.

As long they go totally with the military standards,

Add to what? SSG Brad Porter??

Questions of showers, sleeping…etc will a raise as well.

SGT Kristin Wiley, I'd have to agree with you. The military isn't aware right now of how to deal with these issues.

They have not allowed enlistments for MTF or FTM transsexuals yet. Personally, if this door did open, a MTF should naturally be integrated with females and vice versa for the FTM.

To simplify, a transgender pre-op is still a transgender. A male transgender identifies and has a "female" mental identity, yet has the sexual equipment of a male. Because he appears to be a male, he would be billeted with other males, which isn't too different than gay males billeting with other males, EXCEPT, he doesn't identify as a male, but as a female. Similarly, it would be much like placing a female into male billeting with other males.

Complicated. I think that the only way this could work is if we were 100% integrated, both males and females. It removes the gender-orientation question, because the field is more even distributed in terms of personal gender identity.

I think a good starting point would be education, to introduce service-members to the concepts and differences and commonalities of sexuality and gender. From a few of these posts, I have learned that we have a long way to go on this. And was honestly surprised that many found the subject to be irrelevant, provided the SM could perform his or her job effectively.
I admire progressive thought and don't regard blanket statements of disgust as useful or informative. Without talking about these things, we can't learn about them.

SGT Kristin Wiley The navy did it for years. only difference was with the measurements. And I've seen women outscore men on marine corps pfts. Like my mother still says...never under estimate the strength of a determined woman.

SSgt John Steigerwald I am not saying we shouldn't approach the issue, but right now our military does not see this as an issue that needs to be rectified. There are many more smaller steps we need to make before we can reach this point. As SGT (Join to see) pointed out showering, sleeping quarters, and physical standards all need to be changed to make this work. The military is still working some of these things out from the repeal of DADT, and now integrating women into combat positions. I am of the opinion that the Armed Forces need to develop gender neutral standards, and take advantage of the individual capabilities of service members rather than limit them based on their gender.

old good fellow afb interesting opinion i think it would cause way to many problems more bad then good so they say but on a side note i have grand memorys there but the commander is something else and it sucks u cant drink at the smoke pits any more sorry lol i might have had a hand in that

On that side note, I am not a student, I am permanent party here at Goodfellow AFB. The fact that we discriminate against people for everything already causes plenty of problems. A transgender person has every right to service as a person who is not, the fact that we would stop them from serving and being a part of our team is demoralizing. If you are a man turned woman or the other way, it isn't an issue that you have chosen to do so, but that others refuse to accept that person for their choice and change their opinions and work habits with them for personal reasons that have nothing to do with the workplace.

Yes it is silly we keep people out for such things as ADD and ADHD. Many of them can function as normally as anyone else in the military. When I entered they were unheard of, and now I would of been disqualified due to them with Asperger's. Silly things people with Asperger's pay so much attention to the smaller details that many people miss. So for some MOSes it would be good thing to have these type of people in them for the mission.

The key words (to me) in your comments are "mentally capable" or "mentally qualified". A transgender person is not mentally qualified in my opinion. Secondly, as it has been pointed out in this lengthy discussion, serving in the U.S. Armed Forces is a privilege not a right. There is no guarantee someone can serve in the military.

Thank you SMSGT, tell it like it is, AMEN.

Well said SMSgt Kevin Connair!

Well stated SMSgt Connair! This is really the nuts and bolts of the situation.

I may be mistaken (won't be the first time!). "Gay" and "Transgender" are two distinct categories. Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. A person may be Transgender and not necessarily be Gay. A transgender person can be gay, lesbian, straight, or bisexual. A simple way to think about it is: Sexual orientation is about who you want to be with. Gender identity is about who you are. Gay refers to a man whose sexual orientation is to men or an alliance of gays and lesbians

1SG Dean Mcbride (MPER) (CPHR) You're correct and neither should have anything to do ones abilities to perform jobs they are qualified for.

AR 670-1 says Bubba cain't warr no skirt.

Major Young,

I completely agree that CITIZENS should have full rights to join. My opinions on ILLEGAL immigrants is pretty strict, as I believe being here illegally is just like breaking a federal law. A nationalized immigrant, or someone who uses the proper channels to become a citizen, thats different. I work with citizens of other nations (a couple from Jamaica, one from South Africa) who got their dual citizenship and work jets with me. I have no issues with that at all. Its just the illegal ones, sorry if I wasn't clear lol.

I see your point with services, but they do far more things than cook, clean, and mow lawns at times. Many of them drive DV's around, some run gym programs (like PT tests) that require a lot of organization, and so forth. Security Forces I believe is the "lowest" for general ASVAB scores with a 33 in general to join, which is really easy to score. My point being that a high school diploma/GED is NOT much to ask from someone who wants to join the service; especially when all services are pushing education more and more. About half the E-5's or above I work with have an associates or higher, a few have bachelors, and one is working on her masters. So when a service has such highly qualified and educated individuals, how can they be expected to take people who didn't graduate high school?

I see your point CPT Barden, but with the changes to homosexual policy I'd think that would be moot. I know in the AF we have co-ed dormatories and things, but how would a transgender male (male turned female) be different from a lesbian in a billeting situation? Though I do see how this would get pretty complicated

As has been stated it not going to be easy at the lowest levels, where it going have to work. The next problem, is you have person in a unit for year, then they move on, then... The Leadership from the bottom up the chain of the command will have to work together to sort things out. Just because 2nd Lt Jones has problems, doesn't mean that Captain Roberts doesn't have the same problem, as well as Lt. Colonel Gilford. They all have the same problem in their command, and may have to work with the Battalion to solve an issue that used to be a Company level problem, when billeting comes around for Enlisted personnel in barracks.

jd i couldnt agree more

1LT Scott Doyle, I understand where you are coming from and that there is no simple solution. But imagine if someone told you that you were unable to marry your wife because that was against military rules and that having a spouse would complicate things like deployments. I ask you, if that was the case, would you just quietly serve 20 years and then marry, or would you act and do something about it?

I'm sure they have something they could offer. Like getting intel from drunk foreign soldiers.

"I do question forcing other people to be uncomfortable and inconvenienced in the name of equality or progress or whatever we are calling it now."

A whole lot of people felt uncomfortable and/or inconvenienced in the name of equality or progress when "Blacks" were granted the same rights as "Whites". Theoretically you should be questioning that decision as well - but I HIGHLY suspect that you don't.

I do, however, agree with your implied thesis that a whole lot of "the problem" is caused by those who wail, moan, and wave their hands in the air because they THINK that there SHOULD BE a problem while the people directly concerned simply don't have one until they are told that they do.

This is NOT an endorsement of sexual abuse, but there are some studies out there which show that the degree of harm done by sexual abuse is almost directly related to how much the victim is told that they are going to be irreparably harmed - the actual extent of the sexual abuse is the other main factor and MUST NOT be ignored.

1LT Scott Doyle, I respect your opinion on the matter but disagree with you completely. It is exactly like marriage... what if I don't agree with marriage or religion? Is it fair that I have those issues forced upon me? Either way, I'm not going to argue with you on the matter... you have your opinion and I have mine. My separation paperwork has officially came through so it really doesn't matter to me at this point... moving on :) Good luck to you all and hopefully I can continue to keep you all safe as a woman in my new civilian job career!