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E-9 - CSM
E-9 - CSM
Posted on Mar 4, 2025
What are your thoughts on the award policy in the Army? Should certain awards be reserved for higher ranks and positions?
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My PL recommended me for an MSM for winning our Division gunnery competition. It was immediately kicked back by our company commander who stated that commanders, XOs, S3 staff, and BCs are given this award.
AR 600-8-22 states, “ provides, in pertinent part, that the Meritorious Service Medal is awarded to members of the Armed Forces of the United States or of a friendly foreign nation who distinguish themselves by outstanding meritorious achievement or service in a noncombat area.”
The only reason my PL sent it up in the first place was because the previous year, two soldiers were given an MSM for having the fastest ruck time in E3B.
What are your thoughts as leaders?
AR 600-8-22 states, “ provides, in pertinent part, that the Meritorious Service Medal is awarded to members of the Armed Forces of the United States or of a friendly foreign nation who distinguish themselves by outstanding meritorious achievement or service in a noncombat area.”
The only reason my PL sent it up in the first place was because the previous year, two soldiers were given an MSM for having the fastest ruck time in E3B.
What are your thoughts as leaders?
Officers
1SG
CSM
Awards
Posted 9 mo ago
Responses: 24
Granting an award is always in the hands of the approval authority. In this case, a MSM will go to your CG, or a GO/SES that they've formally delegated the approval authority to (i.e., in writing).
The only person who can deny/downgrade the award is the approval authority or, if formally delegated, an immediate subordinate commander who has the authority to approve the next lower award. In the case of a MSM, it would be the O-6 commander in the chain of command (again, if the authority to deny it has been formally delegated).
Your Company Commander can recommend it be downgraded or disapproved, but they cannot downgrade or deny it as they don't have the authority to do so.
Of course, that is how the regulation (AR 600-8-22*, para 3-6f) requires it, but awards being 'kicked back' seem to happen frequently at the lower echelons (even the higher echelons although to a lesser degree) because individuals don't know the requirements ("what do you mean I can't disprove it?") or just ignore them ("I'm not going to clog up the CG's inbox for something that is going to be denied anyways.").
I would respectfully and tactfully direct your CO's attention to the applicable paragraph. If it remains 'kicked back' (i.e., it wasn't being done because of a lack of understanding), then you'll have to decide 'if the juice is worth the squeeze' regarding further actions.
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* AR 600-8-22 - https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN30935-AR_600-8-22-000-WEB-1.pdf
The only person who can deny/downgrade the award is the approval authority or, if formally delegated, an immediate subordinate commander who has the authority to approve the next lower award. In the case of a MSM, it would be the O-6 commander in the chain of command (again, if the authority to deny it has been formally delegated).
Your Company Commander can recommend it be downgraded or disapproved, but they cannot downgrade or deny it as they don't have the authority to do so.
Of course, that is how the regulation (AR 600-8-22*, para 3-6f) requires it, but awards being 'kicked back' seem to happen frequently at the lower echelons (even the higher echelons although to a lesser degree) because individuals don't know the requirements ("what do you mean I can't disprove it?") or just ignore them ("I'm not going to clog up the CG's inbox for something that is going to be denied anyways.").
I would respectfully and tactfully direct your CO's attention to the applicable paragraph. If it remains 'kicked back' (i.e., it wasn't being done because of a lack of understanding), then you'll have to decide 'if the juice is worth the squeeze' regarding further actions.
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* AR 600-8-22 - https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN30935-AR_600-8-22-000-WEB-1.pdf
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LTC Stephen Conway
Sir, I tried to get a Legion of Merit instead of an MSM for my Retirement. My AGR G3 said if I had multiple MSMs then a LOM was possible. Is this also possible to get an MSM if SFC (Join to see) had multiple ACMs already? I know the MSM is a BG/O-7 level approval but I am trying to help future soldiers and future BGs reflect on this. What do you think, Sir?
SSG Roger Ayscue MSG (Join to see) LTC Trent Klug MAJ Dale E. Wilson, Ph.D. COL Jon Thompson Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth
SSG Roger Ayscue MSG (Join to see) LTC Trent Klug MAJ Dale E. Wilson, Ph.D. COL Jon Thompson Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth
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MSG (Join to see)
LTC Stephen Conway that scenario would fall under quota. Which is also against regulation
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COL Randall C.
LTC Stephen Conway - circling back around to get you an answer. Individual recognition awards, regardless of type (impact award, period of service, etc.), will be based the Soldier's actions during a discrete event (impact) or their performance, level of responsibility, contribution to the mission, etc., not how many awards they previously had, their rank, or some other limiting criteria*.
I should say "should be" instead of "will be" in discussing the criteria because, just as the example of someone not having the authority to deny/downgrade an award not processing it, there are many times that units have informal policies that are prohibited* for awards such as only giving certain awards to certain ranks, not being eligible for a certain award unless they have previous awards, etc.
It is wrong and one of the primary reasons that non-valorous awards have a stigma of being a "who you know" thing instead of a "what you did" thing.
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* The regulation (AR 600-8-22, para 3-1) stipulates prohibited actions and guidelines regarding
â—Ź Rank or grade will not be a factor in determining the type or level of recognition nor will any quotas be established limiting the number of awards that may be recommended or approved.
â—Ź No individual is automatically entitled to an award upon departure from an assignment.
â—Ź No award is automatic and preconditions for an award may not be established (i.e., if you meet a certain criteria then you get a certain award) including limiting awards based on a standard or rank (e.g., nobody can get an award unless they 450+ on the ACFT .. nobody will get a MSM unless they are E-7+, etc.)
I should say "should be" instead of "will be" in discussing the criteria because, just as the example of someone not having the authority to deny/downgrade an award not processing it, there are many times that units have informal policies that are prohibited* for awards such as only giving certain awards to certain ranks, not being eligible for a certain award unless they have previous awards, etc.
It is wrong and one of the primary reasons that non-valorous awards have a stigma of being a "who you know" thing instead of a "what you did" thing.
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* The regulation (AR 600-8-22, para 3-1) stipulates prohibited actions and guidelines regarding
â—Ź Rank or grade will not be a factor in determining the type or level of recognition nor will any quotas be established limiting the number of awards that may be recommended or approved.
â—Ź No individual is automatically entitled to an award upon departure from an assignment.
â—Ź No award is automatic and preconditions for an award may not be established (i.e., if you meet a certain criteria then you get a certain award) including limiting awards based on a standard or rank (e.g., nobody can get an award unless they 450+ on the ACFT .. nobody will get a MSM unless they are E-7+, etc.)
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LTC Matthew Schlosser
True story about the downgrades. My second tour in Iraq, I was responsible for the security of a base housing 5 American and 2 Iraqi battalions. As a 1LT/CPT. The loveable moron of a mayor that I worked for INSISTED on putting me in for a BSM. I told him it would never fly because I didn't stand on a street corner with a rifle. We were both right, I was punching well above my weight in a combat zone. But I tried to talk him into submitting a MSM instead. He didn't listen. So of course the brigade commander followed the advice of my company and battalion commanders and awarded me an "ARCOM with narrative." SMH. Funny thing is, I retired without a MSM. I got a LOM, A BSM, and a DMSM, but spent almost 4 of my years as a field grade office in training, and then had two 3.5 year tours, so I only got two ribbons in the last 11 years of my career (the LOM and DMSM).
I also experienced quota. 3ID set a cap of 10% at company level UIC for awards for OIF1. I was the support platoon leader in 3-7 Cav. Naturally, that 10% in HHT was reserved for the squadron staff, right? I cashed in chips I didn't have to squeeze an ARCOM out of the bastards for my platoon sergeant. He shrugged because he already had six of them. But I wasn't wrong.
I also experienced quota. 3ID set a cap of 10% at company level UIC for awards for OIF1. I was the support platoon leader in 3-7 Cav. Naturally, that 10% in HHT was reserved for the squadron staff, right? I cashed in chips I didn't have to squeeze an ARCOM out of the bastards for my platoon sergeant. He shrugged because he already had six of them. But I wasn't wrong.
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I hate the rank dictates medal garbage.
That said, don't sweat the downgrade. Keep performing to the best of your abilities by setting the example (like in division gunnery) and the rewards and awards will come.
That said, don't sweat the downgrade. Keep performing to the best of your abilities by setting the example (like in division gunnery) and the rewards and awards will come.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
Actually I Had 2 Rows Of Of Ribbons~ `And 2 Stripes To Keep Them Company ..One Was For Good Conduct (For Never Being Caught) And The Others? Not A Clue, But Whatever They Were, I'm Sure I Didn't Earn Them, So I Shouldn't Be Wearing Them. ~ In Essence "I Didn't Care Whether I Had Them Or Not" ~ They Weren't Mine To Show To Others.
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Oh. Dear. God. How I hate it when Leaders use rank/position as a basis for certain levels of awards. It clearly states in the regs that this (outside very specific awards) practice is not allowed. It needs to be based on the level of impact.
I've no idea if DIV Gunnery is a level worthy of MSM, but that is NOT for your Commander to decide. That belongs to the CG or their designated rep. I don't feel the fastest ruck time is worthy. AAM at best.
Again, I HATE this for you.
I've no idea if DIV Gunnery is a level worthy of MSM, but that is NOT for your Commander to decide. That belongs to the CG or their designated rep. I don't feel the fastest ruck time is worthy. AAM at best.
Again, I HATE this for you.
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