Posted on Sep 13, 2018
One of the First Women in the Infantry Will Be Discharged From the Marines
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Infantry
Marines
Women in the Military
Crime
UCMJ
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 23
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Dumbest thing I've seen the Marines do. Seriously? This rings like a railroad. How many thousands of Soldiers, Sailors and Airforce folks do the same thing she did - or worse - every single day and nothing happens? Yeah, it's a waste of time, money and effort - and it's the Marines fault.
How much easier would it have been to say, "Oh you married that guy you were sleeping with last year? ... CONGRATS!" But no, instead it's "let's make an example of this female [who shouldn't have been here in the first place because women shouldn't be doing this man's job!]".
And the IO even says (essentially), "This is a stupid thing to recommend Court Martial for... this is admin punishment offense." And THEN the LTC ignores the recommendation in order to hammer the female? I'd LOVE to see what the LTC has done in similar situations on the past. This just stinks to high heaven of "good ol boy" "protect the Corps!" BS.
Heck, even two Officer over that LTC recommended no UCMJ.
This is all sorts of wrong.
How much easier would it have been to say, "Oh you married that guy you were sleeping with last year? ... CONGRATS!" But no, instead it's "let's make an example of this female [who shouldn't have been here in the first place because women shouldn't be doing this man's job!]".
And the IO even says (essentially), "This is a stupid thing to recommend Court Martial for... this is admin punishment offense." And THEN the LTC ignores the recommendation in order to hammer the female? I'd LOVE to see what the LTC has done in similar situations on the past. This just stinks to high heaven of "good ol boy" "protect the Corps!" BS.
Heck, even two Officer over that LTC recommended no UCMJ.
This is all sorts of wrong.
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
PO2 Robert Aitchison - I think it would have been handled NJP - just like the IO recommended. It's that one LTC who seems to be holding a grudge.
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
MSgt Stephen Council - Look at what you said there... two Senior Enlisted Soldiers were "retired" (honorably I'm sure) and lost rank. Did any of those Senior Enlisted folks get UCMJ'd with the possibly of BCD? Nope. They got to retire early, with full benefits. Definitely a difference.
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MSgt Steve Sweeney
SFC (Join to see) - I understand your point, Kelly, but you are not every female... and certainly not every male. On an anecdotal, case by case basis, I am sure there are plenty that can "maintain control" and conduct themselves in a manner not prejudicial to good order and discipline, but there are many that won't and in sufficient numbers to make it a distraction. Even external to a sexual relationship, the dynamics between men and women are different. I feel denying that or changing biological realities in a short period of time is unrealistic.
Also, when you say, "no one seems to bat an eye at that overall", I would say that is not the case in the Marine Corps, even between service members of the same sex and different ranks if they deemed to "chummy" or familiar, regardless if they are in the same unit or not. The Marine Corps has always taken fraternization, in any form, seriously.
That said, I would be fully supportive of completely female infantry units if there are sufficient numbers to staff them.
Also, when you say, "no one seems to bat an eye at that overall", I would say that is not the case in the Marine Corps, even between service members of the same sex and different ranks if they deemed to "chummy" or familiar, regardless if they are in the same unit or not. The Marine Corps has always taken fraternization, in any form, seriously.
That said, I would be fully supportive of completely female infantry units if there are sufficient numbers to staff them.
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He-in and she-in will always happen...nobody nowhere can prevent it. When you put them together in that environment sooner or later it will happen either be consensual or nonconsensual in which case you have morale and discipline problems. Just my two cents and now I am broke for the day.
Maj Marty Hogan
Lt Col Charlie Brown
1stSgt Glenn Brackin
Cpl Craig Marton
SGM Erik Marquez
MAJ James Woods
SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth
COL Mikel J. Burroughs
SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL
SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4"
LTC Stephen C.
CPL Dave Hoover
SFC Shirley Whitfield
SMSgt Minister Gerald A. "Doc" Thomas
SFC (Join to see)
Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
Sgt Wayne Wood
PVT James Strait
Maj Marty Hogan
Lt Col Charlie Brown
1stSgt Glenn Brackin
Cpl Craig Marton
SGM Erik Marquez
MAJ James Woods
SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth
COL Mikel J. Burroughs
SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL
SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4"
LTC Stephen C.
CPL Dave Hoover
SFC Shirley Whitfield
SMSgt Minister Gerald A. "Doc" Thomas
SFC (Join to see)
Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
Sgt Wayne Wood
PVT James Strait
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Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
Ya we're ready to fight, but we're not necessarily ready for biology.
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MAJ James Woods
Yes. Agreed. Just sick of how this incident and the 82nd 1SG fraternizing with one of the female soldiers that graduated Infantry school and got assigned to his company are being treated as a reason why women shouldn’t be in Infantry units. As if fraternization doesn’t happen in non-Infantry units. Female medics, admin clerks, mechanics are example of women attached to combat units and could find themselves in consensual or non consensual relationship with male combat soldiers.
What bugs me is the lack of detail about the so called larceny and adultery charges. Was that a scare tactic? And how can that retired female officer say the CO was placed in a difficult situation? I never had a problem holding any of my troopers accountable for inappropriate behavior and misconduct; to include inappropriate relationships.
What bugs me is the lack of detail about the so called larceny and adultery charges. Was that a scare tactic? And how can that retired female officer say the CO was placed in a difficult situation? I never had a problem holding any of my troopers accountable for inappropriate behavior and misconduct; to include inappropriate relationships.
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I hate to say I was right, and this is only one example, but if we go back to when all this began I said that this sort of thing was going to happen. Now imagine it going on downrange. And then imagine it not being consensual. It will weaken units. I'm not blaming the man or the woman per se. It's just what happens when you put the two together. And in combat arms I think it's a recipe for disaster.
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1SG (Join to see)
MAJ (Join to see) - If they can't control themselves then they don't belong in the service. We don't need that in our formations. We fill the ranks with Soldiers who can and we continue mission.
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MAJ (Join to see)
1SG (Join to see) - That's a great idea but unfortunately you don't know who can control themselves until they don't. If we could, we wouldn't have to process anyone out for drug use or DUI's. But it happens. With this issue though, you're bringing the incident inside the platoon.
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2LT (Join to see)
If you think men and women should be segregated at work because it prevents personal relationships and harassment from happening, maybe you think Saudi Arabia had it right all along?
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MAJ (Join to see)
2LT (Join to see) - You, and others I've talked to, seem to be missing the major point behind all of this. When a man and woman become "involved" at a bank or in an office it can cause issues. But those issues don't result in deaths. I'm not saying anything about who's right and who's wrong. I'm not saying that this principle needs to be applied to every single aspect of life. I'm saying that when combat units are weakened, the result is dead soldiers. We can't prevent everything that weakens units but we could've seen this coming. So you'll have to forgive me Specialist if I care more about bringing my soldiers home alive than I do about political correctness.
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