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Combat Engineers (12B) now (finally) open to women. Your thoughts?
This is another positive step toward opening remaining Army "direct combat" MOSs to women. In my view, this is long overdue. I am sure many think otherwise.
While I am not an engineer, as a MP I have spent my life with and around them, worked with and around them, so I have seen them up close and personal for a long time
- In the early to mid 90s many MOSs/positions were opened to women. As an example Division MP companies positions were closed to women until then, when all other MP Companies had women already.. This made sense, as all MP companies (at the time/and are) were essentially interchangeable. But, while many other similar changes were made then (Avn, etc) ... Engineers did allow women to lead combat engineers, but not to be enlisted combat engineers.... That made no sense.
- That was also when Ranger School closed to the doors (until 2005/6) to all MOSs unless they were 11, 18, or those who walked with the Infantry... Very few were allowed in - in effort to stop women; Fort Benning will never admit that. Why do I say this. As a Division MP Company Commander 10th Mountain Division (LI) 90-93, my Platoon Leaders positions (MP Platoon Leaders) were coded as Ranger positions, as were many positions in the Division... That means the PLs or others in similar coded positions (like most light combat engineers) should be ranger qualified... So, Fort Benning restricted who could attend. So... A male MP PL should be Ranger Qualied in a light, airborne, and air assault MP Companies, but if you are a female, it is/was no longer necessary...
This change makes sense. Many things we do in the Army, do not make sense...
What are your thoughts? I suspect your thoughts will vary as usual.
Http://http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/enlisted/2015/06/18/combat-engineer-specialty-opens-to-women/28916319/c
This is another positive step toward opening remaining Army "direct combat" MOSs to women. In my view, this is long overdue. I am sure many think otherwise.
While I am not an engineer, as a MP I have spent my life with and around them, worked with and around them, so I have seen them up close and personal for a long time
- In the early to mid 90s many MOSs/positions were opened to women. As an example Division MP companies positions were closed to women until then, when all other MP Companies had women already.. This made sense, as all MP companies (at the time/and are) were essentially interchangeable. But, while many other similar changes were made then (Avn, etc) ... Engineers did allow women to lead combat engineers, but not to be enlisted combat engineers.... That made no sense.
- That was also when Ranger School closed to the doors (until 2005/6) to all MOSs unless they were 11, 18, or those who walked with the Infantry... Very few were allowed in - in effort to stop women; Fort Benning will never admit that. Why do I say this. As a Division MP Company Commander 10th Mountain Division (LI) 90-93, my Platoon Leaders positions (MP Platoon Leaders) were coded as Ranger positions, as were many positions in the Division... That means the PLs or others in similar coded positions (like most light combat engineers) should be ranger qualified... So, Fort Benning restricted who could attend. So... A male MP PL should be Ranger Qualied in a light, airborne, and air assault MP Companies, but if you are a female, it is/was no longer necessary...
This change makes sense. Many things we do in the Army, do not make sense...
What are your thoughts? I suspect your thoughts will vary as usual.
Http://http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/enlisted/2015/06/18/combat-engineer-specialty-opens-to-women/28916319/c
USAES
12B: Combat Engineer
Women in the Military
EO
21B: Combat Engineer
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 30
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As a qualified 12B, we considered this MOS as "infantry with a shovel". The way we worked many times is a 12B squad would be detailed out to an infantry platoon or company. We were the mobility/counter mobility experts. We were experts in explosives, yes infantry had explosive training, but ours went further. If you ever get the chance to look at a FM 5-34, this is considered the engineer bible.
As far as women doing the job, I see no reason they couldn't, unless they couldn't do algebra and think. They are already 12C I believe, which we cross trained with many times. I've helped assemble many of the bridges in our inventory. I think the biggest hold back was that 12Bs would be attached to infantry units as direct, on site support to breach mine fields, obstacles and such.
As far as women doing the job, I see no reason they couldn't, unless they couldn't do algebra and think. They are already 12C I believe, which we cross trained with many times. I've helped assemble many of the bridges in our inventory. I think the biggest hold back was that 12Bs would be attached to infantry units as direct, on site support to breach mine fields, obstacles and such.
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COL Charles Williams
SGM Mikel Dawson Again, I have never walked in your shoes, but as close-in outsider this makes sense. I can remember my good buddy (EN CPT, West Pointer) while working at West Point in the Mid 90s, was aghast when those changes were made. His points were valid, even though they didn't matter... how could a women lead a combat engineer unit, if she never served in a combat engineer squad or platoon...
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SGM Mikel Dawson
I'll have to agree with that. If you don't know the job, then no way can or should you lead.
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MAJ (Join to see)
I concur, as an Engineer Officer with service as a 12B Sapper, Route Clearance, and Commander of a 12C Bridging Unit. Females did great in 12C and would be excellent at Route Clearance, Mobility Augmentation Companies and such. I would not recommend allowing females in Sapper Units until they are allowed in infantry units as well. Primarily as the tasks are nearly identical Sapper just carry more explosives :)
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My thoughts have never changed. If women can pull their weight just the same as any male, then more power to them. I have know many a woman in the military that could out-do most men and have seen many a man doing a job they shouldn't be doing because they can't physically hack it.
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DID ANY OF YOU GO BEFORE AS A 12 COMBAT ENGINEER IN TO A REAL, MISSION IN IRAK OR AFGHANISTAN? RCP, MINE CLEARING ETC.. COMMANDING A UNIT FROM THE TOC. IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT. DON'T HAVE ANY IDEA HOW HARD IS. IS NO JOKE DOW RAGE PERIOD. FOR ME IS NOT A PLACE FOR WOMEN OR DISTRACTIONS NO SPECIAL TREATMENT AT ALL.
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COL Charles Williams
I have served on combat more than once SGT Ramon A. Valentin Torres and our units have women, not just in staff jobs, but in squads, platoons, companies, battalions etc. 12B was the last engineer MOS close to women, but that has changed. Times are changing. Women can handle being a combat engineer.
- SEC Army signed Army Directive 2015-27 (Expanding Positions for the Assignment of Enlisted Female Combat Engineer Soldiers) on 16 JUN 15.
- The Directive opens up MOS 12B (enlisted combat engineer) and seven associated ASIs to women (B6, B9, D3, J3, K9, R7 and S4).
- This MOS was the only remaining MOS within the Engineer Career Management Field closed to women (there are 18 enlisted MOS, 3 warrant officer, and 3 officer MOS within the Engineer CMF.
- The 30 day congressional notification process required by Title 10, USC section 652 was completed on 21 MAY 15. The directive is effective immediately.
- SEC Army signed Army Directive 2015-27 (Expanding Positions for the Assignment of Enlisted Female Combat Engineer Soldiers) on 16 JUN 15.
- The Directive opens up MOS 12B (enlisted combat engineer) and seven associated ASIs to women (B6, B9, D3, J3, K9, R7 and S4).
- This MOS was the only remaining MOS within the Engineer Career Management Field closed to women (there are 18 enlisted MOS, 3 warrant officer, and 3 officer MOS within the Engineer CMF.
- The 30 day congressional notification process required by Title 10, USC section 652 was completed on 21 MAY 15. The directive is effective immediately.
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SGT Ramon A. Valentin Torres
COL Charles Williams Much respect for you sir. if you serve as a combat engineer on a real theater of combat operations in Irak or Afghanistan doing RCP 5mph in a denger zone. i don't know if you want to stop for a female to change her menstrual diaper after 12+ hours on a mission she will cry for a change, or stop because she don't want to pee bottle like every body else or worst the commander who is on the TOC drinking hes coffee decide that don't want any body to pee bottle in front of her because is going to be considered sex harassment. and many,many things that if you were there and done that I don't need to explain. in my unit i never in 12 years of combined service active and guard 2 tours to AF and now Army E-5 MEB/PEB medically retired90%, VA100%,CRSC,90% never see a 0-3 and above go out side the wire or a E-8 and above get out of his desk. like i say no special treatment if you were there you know what I am saying. is not a joke and peoples life are in danger once out side for as long it takes the mission. that my friend is not the time to fell sorry because is the only female in the unit and the new and always lost LT want to all his soldiers take care of her because of that. and i am sorry if I sound rough but is what it is simple and clear and i can be more specific and add many many tings that happens down rage on real mission, real bullets, real enemies, real big boom, and a bunch of soldiers that once they get bored and start to have the felling of, I don't care if i live o die. like provably many of us have after + months in combat the get really creative!! but there is no need to explain for that because like you say sir. you serve as a (COMBAT) ENGINEER more than once right. like i say no spacial treatment.
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COL Charles Williams
SGT Ramon A. Valentin Torres - Thanks. I have not walked in your shoes, but I have worked around the Engineer Regiment since I was private in Alaska in 1981 (47th Engineers). I guess since women were in the MP Regiment when I enlisted, and I never got a vote, this was a world I lived and know. I have seen good and bad MPs of both sexes, both in Garrison and combat. I know many men, senior leaders, who would not leave "the wire." But, this is so emotional, and we all have opinions this for good reasons. Nevertheless, like the black beret, DADT, and many other decisions, our opinions matter not. The Army is forever changing and transforming. I always loved to see route clearance teams on the MSRs... it made we feel good, and thankful I did not have to do that... Then we would blow by... and I didn't feel so good....
Thanks for your service and sacrifice.
Thanks for your service and sacrifice.
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